originally posted by Annette
My mistake, asleep as usual.
Ypso - now that is a very very interesting question! Giving it some thought…could be fun!
originally posted by Julie
Annette:
Why would Arithon have to deal with the grimward? He's already saved the world from the Marak wraiths and will presumably have to do the same with those that make up the Mistwraith. Sheshkroziel (spelling?)took care of at least one. Perhaps she couldbe convinced to eradicate the others.
originally posted by Annette
Seshkrozchiel got rid of one grimwarded dragon haunt, with a bit of help, and helped Davien repair two other grimwards. That seemed a perfect chance to be rid of three Grimwarded dragons, instead only the grimward Asandir was trapped in was dealt with, and that was not easy to do, and he was just a nameless dragon. I am pretty sure most of those grimwards are waiting for Arithon to develop his talents and skills enough to be able to deal with them.
Arithon would have a bit more than just the Mistwraith waiting to be redeemed in the next book, there is still the khadrim, meth spawn, a mad Koriani matriarch and Lysaer to go, and maybe another lot of necromancers unless Lysaer or a dragon toast them first. And then there is the problem of getting humanity to the fourth age.
originally posted by Ypso
Really?! That would be great, Janny! I will keep my fingers crossed and hope for a Khetienn out there who, while probably as shy as any other wild cat, will allow you to paint her should the time come.
With regards to what the future may or may not has in store for Arithon, I sincerely hope that he won't deal with the Khadrim (in the sense of getting rid of them). This may sound a bit odd but I have to admit that I harbour some kind of tender affection for them, born out of pure fascination. To me it is similar with the Seardluin, though I wouldn't want to come across either of them.
So I would rather have them left alone. Must be hard enough already - and, I guess, boring as well - being confined to that preserve most of them.
originally posted by Ypso
Argh, 'most of them' should of course read 'most of the time'. Sorry for the confusion and the double post.
originally posted by Annette
Spoiler, Spoiler, Spoiler, Spoiler, Spoiler.
Why we have to use spoiler tags for speculation is a mystery to me. Today's top secret bit of speculation concerns something Maenelle said to Lysaer a fair while back, and which Janny brought up in Initiate's Trial.
quote:From this day forward, expect an arrow from the shadows, poison in your cup, and a knife at your throat, among my people.
This might not exactly be the curse Lysaer and a fair few readers have assumed it to be. Has anyone devoted any thought to it? I suggest that it was Sulfin Evend who was the s'Gannley holding the knife to Lysaer's throat, which was done in order to save Lysaer.
I would think Daliana would be involved with the poison in the cup. Lysaer came up with one explanation himself.
"He could never outlive his redoubled shame for the grotesque necessity that poisoned the purity of his affection."
Arithon in Stormed Fortress said something interesting concerning Elaira.
"He let the held cup of her being fill all that he owned in the world."
Not being a heavy thinker I will leave that up to someone else to try and explain it, but I am happy Daliana has that one reserved.
Which leaves an arrow from the shadows.
A Caithwood (Shadowed wood) s'Gannley did send Lysaer an arrow, actually Maenol sent one on two occasions a fair while ago, the last message sealed in his own blood, but still they did not seem to have the personal touch Sulfin Evend and Daliana have. Maybe Saroic gets to be the third Caithdein of s'Gannley descent to have a go at changing Lysaer's fate? Hopefully he does not have to die like Maenelle, in order for Lysaer to get the message.
Maenol's arrows were:
"The lacquered red shaft gleamed like a line of new blood against his stainless white tabard. The hen fletching also was scarlet, the cock feather alone left the muted, barred browns of a raptor’s primary. ‘That’s a clan signal arrow. Its colors are symbolic, a formal declaration of protest.’"
"Since my arrow isn’t struck through your heart, you have proof. I haven’t come for your death.’ He lifted his grazed chin. ‘Instead I bring formal protest. This writ signed by townsmen to grant sovereign power in Tysan is invalid by first kingdom law. The tenets of this realm’s founding charter hold my act as no crime. Your claim to crown rule is in flagrant breach of due process.’
Saroic as Caithdein of Tysan is probably going to have to respond the next time Townsmen offer Lysaer kingship.
Maenol's second arrow was a black one
-affixed to its shaft, sealed in Maenol s’Gannley’s blood, a letter pronounces a forfeit of life against the s’Ilessid pretender who has dared break the freedom of the first kingdom charter’
Neither arrow seemed to have a lot of effect on Lysaer, maybe Saroic will come up with a different approach?
Or maybe the arrow is something else, how did Sulfin Evend get Lysaer separated from his light blinded fanatical followers?
Anyone have any thoughts on this particular curse?
originally posted by Ypso
I am one of those readers who took that statement of Maenelle as nothing else than a classic curse, though your observations are not uninteresting and it would be quite an ironic twist.
Aside from the mentioned lack of effect on Lysear there seems to be another reason why (in my opinion) Maenol's arrows do not qualify as the one evoked by Maenelle, at least when Sulfin Evend's and Daliana's actions represent knife and poison. What they did was done for Lysaer's sake, but the same can not be said of Maenol's arrows. Also, while both Sulfin Evend and Daliana had/has a close relationship with Lysaer, he and Maenol did not share such a deep bond. Sure, Maenol was pretty upset when Lysaer allied with the townsmen, but I do not remember that Lysaer cared particularly much for him.
So, yes, my guess would be that the arrow from the shadow has yet to come.
originally posted by Julie
Perhaps the arrow from the shadow is the reminder that Lysaer's claim to kingship is not sanctioned: the caithdien's line survives and is a functioning "shadow behind the throne". I hope that there will be reconcilliation with the Tysan clans. At some point Lysaer has to overcome the curse- his character has already evolved so much.
originally posted by Annette
I am leaning heavily towards Sulfin Evend getting two shots at altering Lysaer's path. Just have not got around to rounding up the quotes, but his major decision had not yet occurred at the end of Stormed Fortress. Cannot think what Lysaer could have done to deserve such a pointed argument though, considering Arithon was already out of the picture. Maybe it was the kingship thing again.
I think by the end of this Lysaer would have lost all interest in kingship, so reconciliation with Tysan's clans might not be high on his list of things to do. He might not want to try and pick up the shattered pieces of his life after that Mistwraith is finished with him, and it seems his own gift of justice might get in the way of him even trying. From what Ath's adept said, there is actually something Lysaer can do to help once freed, but I would think it had more to do with preventing his townspeople from getting BBQ'd by a very angry dragon. Or maybe he can help get Arithon back, but I would think Arithon would not be depending on Lysaer for help.
originally posted by Julie
I agree that Lysaer may not be interested in kingship, but he knows what harm his actions (with/without the mistwraith influence) have done. Attempting to reconcile with Tysan's clans would not be outside of his sense of justice. We will have to see how much self control he maintains in order to divorce from the Sect again. He did initiate a decent truce in Rathain which lasted generations.
originally posted by Annette
The truce in Rathain was possible because Lysaer got a break from fighting the curse while Arithon was imprisoned. And a truce is a long way from reconciliation, I doubt Barach forgave Lysaer for murdering his father, but he had to think of the safety of the clans first. Lysaer goes burning temples in Tysan, the True Sect is likely to burn something more irreplaceable in Rathain. Rathain's clans are no longer protected, Lysaer left them to the mercy of the True Sect. He never hesitated to leave Dakar and Daliana in similar danger. The curse would blind Lysaer to the consequences of most of his actions.
originally posted by Julie
A truce is a beginning. The strife was brewing well before the Rebellion, Mistwraith lasted 500 years, etc. It will take many generations to sow any seeds of trust (much harder than distrust). I doubt Lysaer was looking for Barach's forgiveness. Jieret's family was told that it was his own decision to act as a sacrifice. Also if they adhered to the Charter Law- it would be the Paravians to redress the murder of caithdiens. One could of course argue that Jieret was actively dying anyway when the sword pierced his heart.
I'm not so sure that Lysaer does not weigh alternatives- he is gifted to some extent with farsight. He did not seem surprised that Daliana survived the Inn cellar. My guess is that he assumed Dakar's 700 years of Fellowship training did not leave them defenseless. As far as protecting the clans- they have survived purges before albeit with dwindling population,he may trust that history.
originally posted by Annette
It is not only Rathain's clans Lysaer put at risk rushing off to war to throw his might around and hand out punishment. As elected Major of Etarra he had a lawful duty to protect the townborn of Etarra as well. Under charter law Lysaer had no right invading another kingdom, either Havish or Tysan and starting a war. If he was forced against his will to invade Havish, he cannot really say he did not have a choice if he goes to Tysan. Although it will be the effect of the curse just the same.
Lysaer goes burning temples in Tysan, he is going to cause the very problem he was trying to avoid, the people will see him as an avatar handing out divine retribution, and worship him even more. The true Sect would have won, and reunited Lysaer with his faithful followers.
Lysaer might not show it, but still those failings would hurt him and add more coals to the fire. In his right mind Lysaer would never have deserted two friends who had risked their lives to save him. Or deserted those under his lawful protection. Even what little integrity Lysaer had hung on to previously while fighting the curse, seems to be vanishing.
There are still some low points Lysaer has not reached, but he seems likely to get there.
originally posted by Julie
I hope for the sake of story telling that Lysaer does not sink any lower. He seemed to reach a plateau stage then dipped down because of the curse. We do not know yet what happened to him under Daliana and Dakar's care after the attack on Havish. We do know that the Fellowship have forced a border truce and maybe arcanely backed the terms. They have intervened for Daliana every time she was brought to the brink. We also do not know what Lysaer was doing while the True sect troops were invading Rathain- we got a very small glimpse after all. He cannot be everywhere at once.
I wondered why the Fellowship did not or were not able to protect the clans of Tysan during the previous 250 years.
originally posted by Annette
quote:'We impair no man's free will by the Law of the Major Balance, that we are charged never to violate.'
Grand Conspiracy
The Fellowship can hardly arcanely restrain every headhunter and religious fanatic in Tysan, any more than they could protect Rathain's clans when they had to survive such harsh persecution. And the clans would not have asked for Fellowship help. When the trees were threatened Asandir acted, and Arithon protected Caithwood recently. As far as we know Tysans clans have not yet had to survive a massacre like Rathain's clans did with Tal Quorin, or the invasion of Havish.
I would think unless a kingdoms clanborn faced total extermination, or the sites where the mysteries are active were threatened, the Fellowship would do nothing unless asked. They only seem to intervene to protect the compact, or protect Paravian survival. Just out right persecution since the Mistwraith turned up, they allow as a free will choice, just like they allowed the necromancers unless they became a threat.
originally posted by Julie
They have the power to restrain every fanatic but their first loyalty is Paravian survival. I got the feeling that Tysan's clans in resident are winnowed drastically down. Survival of bloodlines was ensured by sending refugees to Havish.They could ask for guidence if nothing else. Asandir mitigated the truce between the sect and Havish, there will be consequences if the terms are broken as each side went into negotiations by free will.
Although the seven value each individual "life", they do not see death per se as negative. Everything is connected- flesh allows sensation but can inhibit the true spirit.
originally posted by Annette
We have no evidence a truce was signed between Havish and the True Sect, all that I remember being said was Asandir treated with the Hatchet to clear the war host from Havish's borders. Maybe all Asander said was get and they ran.
The Law of the Major Balance is not some man made law the Fellowship can break whenever they feel like it, It is the source of their power. They might break it to save Athera. It seems they were willing to break it to save the compact, if they were willing to kill Lysaer as a last resort, but they would not break it otherwise.
But the clans suffering persecution is nothing new, they have been hunted for over 7 hundred years, the clans would not need to ask advice of the Fellowship on how to survive headhunters. And the Fellowship is not some oracle the clans can ask advice from for every problem they have. That and the clans are very independent, just like Arithon is, they would face extermination probably before asking for help.
Pretty sure the Fellowship would see every life lost untimely to a violent death as a negative impact, literally. Not everyone is bound to Athera and immortal like most of the Fellowship are, even Paravians cross the wheel when they die. And they would certainly see Arithon's death as negative, since their hopes for the future would be ashes without him.
If the Fellowship did not see death as a negative, they would have just let Arithon live out his life as a bard and be happy.
originally posted by Julie
I think there is a distinction between the Law of the Major Balance and the Compact. The Seven seem to allow things to get to a critical mass before intervening. The Grey necromancers were freely practicing until they threatened the compact with the very real threat of enthralling Lysaer and the untapped potential of his gift.
The clans can ask for help- why they don't is a bit irritating. I haven't read anything that says they would be denied. Part of their stubborness is their adherence to the compact. As the last defenders of the free wilds I cannot fathom why they would rather die out than ask for help.
The Fellowship would view death on different levels. THey are compassionate beings and understand loss, they see the "big picture" and what a death means to the immediate and seemingly extraneous relationships of the deceased. However death in and of itself is part of life. The Fellowship understands the interconnectedness of everything and would view the end of physical existence as energy recycling.
THe Fellowship did not let Arithon live without ties to monarchy because they needed him in that role at that time. Even if he was never sanctioned as crown heir, the mistwraith's curse would have hounded Arithon's existence.
originally posted by Adrian Algire
I have a question. Could a dragon dream the curse away from lysaer? When Arithon went into the glade and through his endeavors was washed clean, could he do that for his brother too? Obviously, not within range of each other, but I wonder if it could be done. He awoke Sight in Tarens through music. He could do the same with his brother.
Would Lysaer have to be in the Glade for it to work? He has ties there just like Arithon does. OR would he need to be sanctioned by the Fellowship again for it to work?
With Arithon's new found knowledge battling the free wraiths, could He help unravel the mistwraith from his half-brothers birth gift of Justice?