originally posted by Julie
Sleo and Annette:
Yes, Lysaer's pride and other faults tip the balance- but the Mistwraith is coiled around every facet of his being prodding, blocking, etc. The curse may be quiescent at times but that does not mean gone, just much easier to contol.
His disturst of magecraft is also not so straight forward, although Arithon's powers are enviable, Lysaer has talent beyond elemental that could be trained- I hope that some of the series will see him explore that side free of the mistwraith. He may be able to embrace beauty and balance.
originally posted by Annette
But the Mistwaith is not coiled around every facet of Lysaer's being. It would affect many of his decisions, but not every aspect of his character. So we can pick out what Prince Charming would be like without his consuming hatred for Arithon his self blinding delusions and his warped sense of justice.
Lysaer's distrust of magecraft while there before he was cursed, was not a major issue. It only became an issue after the curse since Lysaer associated it with Arithon and wanted to wipe out all users of magecraft who were not loyal to himself, since he considered them enemies. For the 249 odd years Arithon was imprisoned, Lysaer could be himself with almost no cursed influence. So the clans were better protected in Rathain and the burnings presumably stopped. Lysaers interest would still be ruling power, and not anything like a Fellowship sanctioned king. We have seen enough of Fellowship sanctioned royalty to know they behave nothing like Lysaer. Does not mean he cannot change later, when he is rid of the curse. But how likely would Lysaer be to stick around after he realises what he has done? Look at what Lysaer was like at Alestron when under the influence of Alithiel's song. Lysaer will do a lot worse yet. Lysaer embraces beauty, balance and the mysteries it is more likely to be just before he departs this life.
Lysaer will embrace the beautiful Daliana and her love long before that, does that count? He might not change the direction of his fate but at least there will be a chance for more balance.
originally posted by Julie
Hopefully we will learn a bit about what Lysaer was like during Arithon's imprisonment in the next book. He certainly did not balk at the Fellowship at Daliana's "trial" or Dakar's persistent presence. We know that the True Sect did not have much power outside of Tysan and may assume they are unwelcome anywhere else. Lysaer rule would probably be as just as he could make it considering the established hatreds especially at Etarra. Interesting that he did not have any more wives or children- its almost as if he went through that part of his life just putting one foot in front of the other and not experiencing any joy. Guess his last true friend was Sulfin Evend. Too bad he wasnot granted Fellowship longevity.
originally posted by Annette
Lysaer experienced no joy since his separation from Talith, after his cruelty to Ellaine and his coldness towards kevor, it is not surprising Lysaer never wanted to repeat a loveless state marriage just for the sake of be-getting a heir. With no regency he had no need of a heir anyway, a Mayor's title is elected not inherited.
Be interesting to see how Lysaer reacts if Daliana gets pregnant. Especially if he has accepted kingship from the townspeople.
originally posted by Sabine Kaeschner
@ Anette
You said: "At the start of the series s'Ilessid judged Arithon a criminal who deserved to die. Lysaer would not have been born with that hatred, it was just how he grew up (…) He was judged guilty just for being born s'Ffalenn."
I don't have my copy at hand, but Amroth suffered under the s'Ffalenn pirates for, as you yourself stated, 7 generations. When they found a pirate-ship, they were bound to believe it has come to plunder. And Arithon used his shadows to save this ship.
Shall not mean that I think Arithon was wrong to do so, but I think in this situation everyone would believe Arithon an evil pirate.
Later in the desert he was hungry, thirsty, kidnapped, and all that together with someone he had to believe was his enemy. As would everyone of us, too.
And about him being unable to overcome his fathers influence - we all try to be loved and approved of by the ones we love. He got rejected by his mother - which explaines even more that he needed his fathers approvel.
And remember - Arithon is the same. He also needed his fathers approvel of the actions and his absolution for being unable to save him.
It's not that Lysaer is born or raised bad, he just had to overcome his mistrust and cautionuess, and before the curse befall him he was on the best way to do so.
True, he has to much pride and that makes him act like a fool and all, (and I really don't like him!), but that doesn't make him a bad person.
Another thing worries me since I first read the prologue. If Arithon ever becomes king, shouldn't his name be at least be cleared? But the future wises knew of him only as a villain. And there were no fellowship sorcerers around to tell them otherwise …
originally posted by Annette
One brigantine from Karthan against 17 warships from Amroth? Probably neither side was right, neither wrong, but one big bully certainly seemed to be going to a lot of trouble to try and exterminate one little mouse. If the s'Ilessid forces caused their own fatalities in one battle we saw, how reliable were the reports of s'Ffalenn atrocities from the other battles? True if s'Ilessid justice was warped probably s'Ffalenn compassion was wearing thin, but we saw Arithon do some pretty heartless things to try and stop Lysaer. Amroth presumably kept losing, so they had to come up with some excuse for that.
Lysaer blamed Arithon for what happened to Talith, how likely is it that Amroth's king told the truth about what happened to his first wife and their two daughters? Would be nice if Janny actually went back at some point and we found out what happened there. Lysaer has two sisters he never got to meet.
If Lysaer had not been so busy being consumed by hate he should have worked out, if Arithon did not kill him while he was drugged and helpless maybe he had judged him wrongly. Despite what Lysaer thought it was not Arithon's fault he ended up kidnapped and banished. And lying around feeling sorry for himself was not going to do him any good. For pride he refused to move, Arithon used force to move him which later came back to cause Arithon a lot of trouble. But he knew that hatred would keep Lysaer going. Now I would have just walked off and left Lysaer to die, Arithon was determined to save him no matter what it took. We should finally be learning why in the next book.
The seventh age sages went and found out the truth for themselves (which is the books we are reading). Although the temple records state Arithon was evil, even in current times no one with any real wisdom is going to believe anything those temple records say, I doubt they are believed to be any more reliable by the sages. That they went and found out for themselves seems to back up that opinion. The sages know Arithon by name, and Lysaer by just a title which seems to show Arithon probably stayed around longer. There were other sources of info mentioned in the prologue that never agreed with the temples grandiloquently forceful lies anyway. If there are any remains of Lysaer's false religion by the seventh age, hopefully they are outnumbered by people with more sense.
I agree Lysaer is not evil, he just does bad things while under an evil influence. But I doubt Lysaer will be willing to see it as all the fault of the mistwraith, he made a lot of those decisions under his own power, where does his responsibilities for his own actions end? He accepts absolution for his human faults he can start with a clean slate, although others might not be as forgiving. Lysaer is so far willing to go to his grave with those blood debts on his conscience, he is willing to accept the consequences. So no doubt we will need a few boxes of tissues reading how Lysaer is eventually saved, Arithon does not seem likely to give up on him.
originally posted by Annette
Spoiler, Spoiler, Spoiler, Spoiler, Spoiler.
OK this I am pretty sure is one of Janny's cleverly devised clues, make of it what you will.
quote:'Lysaer wouldn't make use of children or innocents.'
And the following conversation, where we can see Arithon's odd reaction which tags it as a clue. Janny has put several clues like this in the previous books.
quote:'You can't know that!' Dakar swore for the lack of a light. He needed to determine whether Arithon braced in shock, or if he was pitched for combative, hot argument. Left no tool but blind trust, he probed softly. 'In the course of three decades, the curse could have changed the half brother you knew past all scruple.'
'No.' Arithon shoved away from the stern window, his admission touched by an odd, heavy weariness. 'By now, I recognize Desh-thiere's workings firsthand.' His clipped speech wove through his fidgeting steps. 'Lysaer was claimed into thrall through his true gift of justice. Change that, and the Mistwraith's hold on him weakens.'
Grand Conspiracy pg 388 PB 1999 ed.
Seems in a way we might be coming full circle, Lysaer firmly believed at the the beginning of the conflict Arithon would never make use of children. Was he as usual referring to himself?
quote:'The Shadow Master has few scruples. But I know him well enough to hedge that he'd sanction no ambush that involved any use of small children.'
Curse of the Mistwraith
originally posted by Julie
Just wondering if the change in the format- having to go through Books chat link has caused this apparent silence??
originally posted by Annette
No, I use a direct link to the discussion area, so changing the official site around made no difference to me. Except I had to look a bit harder to find the webstore. I have just been out of action for a while and still waiting for the USA release of the mass market edition of IT to see if Janny gives us something to inspire a bit of discussion.
But as to the speculation, has anyone wondered about that touchstone that has a record of Asandir's seal of crown sanction? Apart from that sort of thing being recorded in the first place being strange, and likely in quartz or some other crystal, it would be an imprint of the seal of a sanctioned s'Ilessid crown heir. Which is something someone might be needing in the next book. Arithon is the sanctioned prince for Rathain, he has blood ties to Shand and Melhalla. Elaira seems set to gain an imprint for Havish, but if all 5 kingdoms are needed how would someone acquire sanction for Tysan without Asandir's help?
It might not be Arithon that needs it, Janny has not given us much to go on, could be Elaira, Tarens, Lysaer or there is still Dakar who is a mystery. Athera is lacking in royals, yet it seems 5 are needed for this grand destiny whatever it is going to be, one for each kingdom. And the only clue we have for Tysan so far seems to be that touchstone. Do we get 5 in one, a pair or a triad? Or I could be completely wrong, and it might be something else, or someone else.
originally posted by Julie
I seem to have missed something in my re reading. What Tysan touchstone? Lysaer also has blood ties to Shand and Mehalla, and for that matter the Beidar through their mother's line.
originally posted by Annette
The touchstone was briefly mentioned on page 198 of Initiate's Trial, easily missed. But I am sure Janny has plans for such an interesting item.
There is no proof yet there is Biedar blood in any of the royal lineages. And from the descriptions we have of the Biedar, if there was it would more likely be the s'Ffalenn lineage. Look at the description of Elaira's rescuer and escort and compare it to descriptions of Arithon. Torbrand could have been of mixed breeding, and the Biedar seem to have known Torbrand. The Biedar being involved with arranging Shands last king and s'Dienvals last prophet to meet does not involve Biedar bloodlines as far as we know. Although whether or not Dari like Teylia was a Biedar spirit reborn remains to be seen. It seems likely.
Lysaer has no connection with the mysteries, and is outcast, he has no way to claim even his own s'Ilessid kingship, let alone the inheritance for another kingdom. Certainly the only way he has of attracting Paravian attention is not going to do anything to recommend him as a defender for Athera. Having attacked and destroyed in every kingdom of Athera is not going to win him anything but a kingship offered under town law. The Fellowship would never sanction Lysaer for kingship and the clans would never accept him.
Arithon has already stood in defence of both clan and land in every kingdom but Havish, He saved the women and children at Torwent, but has not yet done anything else in Havish. Arithon has blood ties to Shand's Royal line and the s'Dienval line was possibly like the s'Gannley one an alternate lineage that could have been one of the chosen royal lines. How were there s'Gannley princes before the fellowship chose the royal lines for Athera? Where did the mysterious princess of Falmuir who was gifted as a seer come from? Was she an ancestor of the s'Dieneval line perhaps?
Arithon has ties through oath to Rathain, Tysan, Shand and probably Melhalla, through either guest oath, or s'Brydion alliance. I would not be surprised if a s'Brydion was Melhala's current caithdein. Havish should whip the guest cup out if they ever get Arithon back there again. The new Queen might no longer feel Havish needs to stay neutral after Lysaer's actions in Initiate's Trial. And Havish would not have seen the last of the Lights fanatics.
Arithon might have no interest in kingship, but if he is to defend all 5 kingdoms through what ever disaster is coming, he would possibly have to claim the attunements for all 5 kingdoms. He would not be getting them from Asandir. Arithon seems to have no trouble finding a Paravian when he needs one, and he has already visited the kings grove in Selkwood. Maybe there is another way to get the attunements. Each kingdom would have its own sacred groves. And there is still the ruins of Earle and Mainmere and whatever secrets they might hold. It would likely be Arithon that investigates those sites. Tarens does not have the training and Dakar is still a bit of a coward not likely to be volunteering for more responsibility. Elaira also needs training up. And Lysaer is not only lacking training and motive, but will still be cursed, so not likely to be investigating any Paravian secrets, unless it is for a way to destroy them.
originally posted by Julie
I will need to re read the conversation between the Beidar elder and Elaira. I thought she said that Dari's mother was tribal. I also thought the S'Dienval and S'Ahalas lines were through the mother.
Havish was always threatened by the Light's fanatics. They may think twice though before attacking Havish again- Asandir forced the peace.
Not sure what disaster is comming- probably not much different than what has come in the past at least in terms of warfare. I do not think Arithon has to defend every kingdom though.
originally posted by Annette
Dari's mother was Meiglin s'Dieneval her father was the young ruler of Shand, no obvious tribal blood ties. Neither parent was of the Biedar tribe.
quote:‘Not a rogue gift at all! The legacy bestowed upon Dari also was ours, danced into manifest focus and made flesh and blood for the purpose of Mother Dark’s service.’
Same as Teylia, the legacy inherited from the Beidar was not a blood one. Neither Arithon, nor Glendein were of the Biedar tribe.
If there was tribal blood in the s'Dieneval line, or any other named heritage it would have probably occurred before humanity arrived on Athera. Just how did humanity arrive on Athera with some already displaying such strong talent? Why did the Biedar colonise so many worlds?
Disasters coming, probably the fall of Havish and maybe the extinction of another royal line, Arithon's execution, breaking of the compact, Selidie/Morriel probably having another go at destroying everything. Not necessarily in that order. And at least one dragon BBQing part of humanity, probably a few more dragons will return through north gate. And there would be other battles.
The Fellowship will not be helping humanity if the compact is broken, in fact if their original commitment still stands, and there is any hope of saving the Paravians, they would be helping the dragons exterminate humanity. A cruel fate that would be, I am expecting them to be sitting it out. If there is no drake spawn left on Athera, would the Fellowship still be bound?
originally posted by Julie
Tribal or not Arithon and Lysaer share the same maternal DNA and their arcane gifts are inherited through that line. I've only read the short story ?Sundering sky?? once years ago and remember just the gist. Do not recall the Beidar being mentioned as the founder population on multiple planets. Anyway I do not think descending from Beidar is a pre requisite for having "talent". The ability to move energy is inherent in humans and even in out real world every culture has a history of mysticism and healing hands.
originally posted by Annette
The Biedar while colonising the worlds first were probably not directly interacting with the human population who arrived later, they were doing something with the planet itself more likely, that accelerated the development of talent or what would later develop into talent. They colonised the planets first it seems, then moved on to another planet when others showed up. Only on Scathac did they refuse to move.
quote:In fact, their erratic history had colonized other worlds, prior to this one. Choice habitats, worthy of taking a stand; not the bare, poisoned vista PanTac's combined governments had made of this scorched patch of hell.
It is possible there was some interbreeding between the Biedar and the other human settlers, like there is on Athera, but from what we learned of the Beidar back then it seems unlikely. There would have been no crosses with Athera's royal lines once they were set up. The Fellowship were trying to keep humanity within nice safe limits. No way would the Fellowship have allowed two royal lines to be crossed while they were on Athera, and the Biedar are a lot more talented.
It would be interesting to know if there had been any other crosses between a Fellowship chosen royal line and a Caithdein's lineage, Dari seems to have been the first, and Lysaer and Daliana have yet to start a family. Were there any others? We also do not know too much about Elaira's ancestral roots. I always thought for some reason she might have been related to the lady in Jaelot, but even if true that does not give us an answer to the mystery.
And was Lysaer the first offspring of two Fellowship chosen royal lineages? There were two half sisters before him, it seems possible his father killed them and their mother in one of his rages, or had them killed, why? Why have them buried in an unmarked vault? If someone else had been responsible for their deaths, why would the king have dishonoured them that way? Janny might eventually get around to explaining that.
I did actually go looking for the speculation thread for another reason, but will post that thought another day. We have plenty of time to speculate.
originally posted by Annette
There is a very nice painting of that Ilswater sketch up on the Paravia site, I wonder if that is a possibility for the cover of Destiny's Conflict?
https://www.paravia.com/StudioShop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=23_33&prod ucts_id=154
Despite visiting Caithwood in Initiate's Trial the Ilswater River was not mentioned, so not for the last book.
originally posted by Annette
False alarm, it is just the one done for Grand Conspiracy, but I swear that was not there before. I must be going blind. 
Should have known, we can buy that one.
originally posted by Ypso
I don't think that I have seen this one before, so even if it is not really news, you still get a Thanks! from me, Annette.
Speaking of paintings, is there any chance that you might be doing one of a Khetienn in the future, Janny? I know there is a picture that shows the Khetienn of Arithon's banner (Signal at the Havens), but what I would love to see is a real one.
originally posted by Annette
I have some doubts the Khetienn would get much of a mention in the last two books even if she managed to still stay afloat centuries later. The opportunities for Arithon to go blue water sailing might be very few. And there would not be much left of the original ship, after all that refitting over the centuries, Arithon might not feel the same way about her. Now if Janny ever did a sketch for Khetienn in her heyday, it would be nice to see what she looked like.
Or maybe Arithon builds a new ship, if in ages to come he makes a return journey to Kathtairr, to maybe deal with a grimward. He has to get to them eventually, assuming Janny covers that in the last book, and Athera finally gets fully restored before the end of the series.
originally posted by Ypso
Ah, sorry, I should have made this clearer. When I said I would love to see a real Khetienn, I was refering to the leopard, not the ship.