originally posted by Clansman
Ah, but Gillian, forgiveness is not a gift to the recipient. It is a gift to the giver. Without forgiveness flowing between Arithon and Lysaer, the Mistwraith will never be defeated, and the evil stirred up by the Curse's impact on Lysaer and his creation of the Light, and its morphing into the True Sect, will not abate. Arithon will forgive Lysaer and extend his compassion to him. It is in the very nature of who Arithon is, imho. Also, Arithon's gift of forgiveness frees him from the bitterness of the pain inflicted on him by Lysaer. Remember, there was a burgeoning friendship between the half-brothers prior to Lysaer being attacked at Ithamon, so Arithon had obviously come to terms with Lysaer's actions on Dascen Elur and in the Red Desert, and this well before the development of Arithon's understanding of Paravian grace and the mysteries of Athera. Arithon was already freed, or almost, of his bitterness towards Lysaer for those early acts of violence against him.
No one deserves forgiveness. Judgment and justice have nothing to do with forgiveness. Forgiveness is simply an act of pure grace. With all of Janny's references to Paravian grace, and the grace of Ath, and how these acts of grace can overcome the worst of sins (Arithon was no angel in his life prior to the King's Grove. His actions may have been justified, but were they perfect? or even good?), it seems that a major theme of the resolution of the main plot will be Compassion and Forgiveness. Perhaps even a more pure form of Justice, rather than the tainted version engaged by Lysaer for so long. Lysaer certainly does not deserve Arithon's compassion or forgiveness. I am willing to bet that Arithon, if given the chance, will extend that grace to his half-brother. He has just spent the better part of 2 and a half centuries giving that grace to murderous wraiths intent on his destruction, so he has a lot of practice.
And, Arithon knows what is at stake. Redemption and Forgiveness do not serve justice. They serve Grace.
originally posted by Trys
Clansman, I agree with everything you said except for one small item. I don't think the wraiths were 'intent on his destruction' but rather intent on his possession. If one of them could have possessed Arithon imagine the devastation it could have wrought.
originally posted by Gill
Clansman, you are obviously a much kinder person than I am; more humane. I understand your point and agree intellectually but more baser instincts say Lysaer needs to make a greater effort, perhaps using his gift to benefit others, before he deserves forgiveness
originally posted by Clansman
Gill, not kinder. Just a recipient of forgiveness, and having learned well the lesson the importance of my forgiving others. The hurts others have done to me do not have any power over me, nor do they cause me any bitterness or negative feelings, because of my act of having forgiven.
Without forgiveness, I'd be a slave to the pain this world inevitably inflicts.
Yes, Lysaer needs to do more, but remember, he was always more afflicted than Arithon, and had no defence. The F7 guarded the wrong Prince at Ithamon, where Arithon could have defended himself. Lysaer never got the chance to develop as he should have prior to the Curse ensnaring him.
Again, no one DESERVES forgiveness. But the person who was hurt, the one doing the forgiving deserves the freedom it grants. People often get that aspect of forgiveness mixed up. It is a central tenet of my Christian faith that a lot of so-called Christians get totally backwards (I have never found the Christian Right in the US to be really very Christian, for instance. I actually find them quite judgmental, selfish and hateful, in total contrast to the one in whom they claim to believe: Jesus Christ). No one deserves forgiveness. It is a gift freely given. It does not mean that you don't remain responsible for the harm you have caused, or that the consequences of your past conduct won't still reverberate through your life. It simply means that you have been absolved on a spiritual and emotional level of the guilt associated with the wrong-doing, and the shackles that guilt puts on your life.
Let's say that I stole money from my employer to feed a gambling habit. My employer discovers the theft, I am charged, and the wheels of justice start to grind in my life (or is that "up my life"?). When I am sentenced, my employer decides to make a public statement of forgiveness for what I have done. The judge takes that into account, but I would still have a criminal record, would be ordered to make restitution to my employer, I would still have lost my job and any respect that I had in the community, and I would still have to deal with my gambling problem.
But my employer would no longer harbour feelings of betrayal and resentment to my behaviour, and I would have been thrown a life line of grace to help me deal with the consequences in which I had put myself.
That is the point of grace. It is a gift freely given, a key to the bonds that we place on ourselves.
originally posted by Walt
Let us not forget one important fact about Arithon: his limitless capacity for compassion; at times unbearably so. I think it was Sethvir or maybe Jiret who observed that Arithon would forgive the hand of the person that knived him… without any reservations. Deserved or not, Lysander has Arithon's forgiveness.
Forgiveness is hard… don't I know it! I have many areas in my life where I am striving to get to that act of forgiving and letting it go. In my faith, we have a scripture that states "I the Lord will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men." As Clanman said, Grace is the gifted key to the bonds that we place on ourselves. Grace was the gift of Ath creator made real in the Paravians.
originally posted by Annette
I disagree Lysaer was more afflicted than Arithon, it was after all Lysaer's hatred that was used by the Mistwraith, it just fanned it a bit hotter. Lysaer was never really forced to do anything against his nature. He was always willing to kill and hate for a cause. He had been willing to kill Arithon long before he was cursed. Arithon was the one afflicted with a hatred that was foreign to his nature.
Lysaer was less protected, and subconsciously probably still struggling with his hatred despite the progress he had made. The wraith tempted him with something he wanted and he fell for it without a struggle. Only later did he realise what he had become and try and fight the curse.
But I agree salvation is not something you can earn, it is something you are freely given. Lysaer is going to be forgiven no matter how far he falls, it is accepting that forgiveness that will be hard. Ages later the Fellowship are still shackled by their guilt for past actions, despite all they have done since they accepted forgiveness. Being forgiven gave them the chance for a new life, but they still remember their mistakes and are haunted by them. Which makes it less likely they will make the same mistakes again.
originally posted by Sleo
I must say, I'm really enjoying this discussion about Lysaer… It's making me think.
originally posted by David Gardner
I really think you are way too harsh on Lysaer, Annette. He has been affected by the curse for so long, in such subtle and insidious ways that it is all but impossible for us to say what his true personality is.
Personally I cannot separate his rejection of Ath's adepts and the Fellowship from the impact of the curse-- I can't say that it's just because he "hated Arithon anyway" and was "tempted" during the possession.
originally posted by Annette
Really? Maybe you are right, maybe not.
Lysaer rejects help more likely because of his pride, than any curse. Cursed or not he would still not be open to accepting help since he would see it as admitting to a weakness.
originally posted by Julie
Annette:
I think you underestimate the power of the curse. Arithon said repeatedly that he could not trust the reasons for his own actions being truly his own. It was only after the curse was lifted by the Sun Child that he could go forward fully self propelled.
Almost every scene in Initaite's Trial involving Lysaer showed him struggling to maintain self control. Also he did not "hate Arithon anyway". The extreme hurt from his mother's abandoment was flamed by his strict father- so yes he resented a half brother obviously cherished by his mother's kin. But I always thought he attempted to connect more than Arithon did.
originally posted by Julie
Clansman:
I meant to say earlier that you have spoken beautifully about forgiveness, grace, and compassion. Forgiving does free the grantor of the negative emotions associated with the transgression and may help lift some feelings of guilt. As far as this story goes, the Fellowship have said (can't remember where) that the brothers will be needed to act to together to permanently defeat the mistwraith. Giving and accepting forgiveness and all the responsibility that entails may the weapon. I think Lysaer has that capacity and free of the mistwraith's influence, the desire.
originally posted by Annette
I never said Lysaer hated Arithon anyway, but it was his hate that was used for the curse. Like Arithon, the curse worked out that was what was strongest and would work the best to influence Lysaer. Arithon never hated anyone before being cursed, despite all the cruelty he had suffered at s'Ilessid hands.
Lysaer's gift of justice was corrupted, his morals became warped, but he was not forced to do anything against his nature. No curse existed on Dascen Elur, or in the Red Desert. Lysaer was a killer before he was cursed, he is just following in his fathers footsteps. All the curse did was lock him into that behaviour to the detriment of his better nature.
Free of the Mistraith's curse, Lysaer's own sense of justice is more likely to be turned on himself. He will become his own judge, jury and executioner. Lysaer has to accept forgiveness before being freed of the curse, and so far the only two groups who could have helped him do that have tried and failed. Nothing is likely to change that Lysaer would suddenly be willing to go seek healing and forgiveness from Ath's Adepts. He had 249 years of freedom and never made an attempt, he is still quite willing to die with those blood debts on his conscience. A few more royals, clan enclaves and Caithdeinen on his conscience is probably not going to make any difference. He feels regret now he is fighting the curse, maybe he would even try to kill himself, but he is not likely to bend his stiff neck and seek self forgiveness. Lysaer already gave his opinion on what he thinks would be his downfall.
quote:Why should I shoulder the chance of a murder that undermines all self-respect? What if I tell you that such a pitfall would hasten my certain destruction?'
It is not likely to be Daliana's death that speeds Lysaer to that moment of reckoning, Lysaer set himself up already for that downfall, there seems nothing he can do to avoid it even if he wanted to. Arithon can defeat the Mistraith, it is defeating the curse that is likely to get him killed. Lysaer might be willing to make a connection at that point, but what would he be connecting with? Despite his pretensions at divinity, Lysaer has shown no spiritual aptitude so far.
originally posted by David Gardner
Sorry Annette, I didn't mean to imply that's what you said by putting it in quotes- however it was the general vibe that I got from your post.
I will have to re-read Curse of the Mistwraith, my memory of Lysaer is that he was essentially a stupid kid trying to live up to an impossibly high standard, rather than him being a natural born killer. The imposition of the curse skews his ability to grow up now he's finally freed of his father's influence.
originally posted by Annette
Lysaer just tended to see things in black and white, he seemed to have a very narrow sheltered view of right and wrong and was all too willing to judge others guilty without looking at their side of things.
At the start of the series s'Ilessid judged Arithon a criminal who deserved to die. Lysaer would not have been born with that hatred, it was just how he grew up. S'Ilessid justice seemed warped long before any curse came on the scene, seven generations of blood feud seemed almost as bad as the curse. Where was the proof Arithon was ever a criminal? He was judged guilty just for being born s'Ffalenn. It took a lot to get Lysaer to look at things differently. True once he realised Arithon had been trying to help him, he went back for him in the Red Desert, but Lysaer was responsible for Arithon needing help in the first place. Although Lysaer at first quickly judged the clans criminals, later he decided a different approach was needed. So he was learning from experience and willing to look at things differently before the curse. I am not so sure Lysaer is free of his fathers influence though, it is that very hate the curse has stuck him with! Lysaer had got past that hatred before he was cursed.
quote:'The shadow lurks in my own heart, won't you see? The foothold for obsession has been, all along, the spoiled, overheated, childish urge to punish my faithless mother's prized bastard!''
Yes the childish urge to punish Arithon was Lysaer's problem that he failed to deal with. Which could have contributed to the reason why it was so easy for the wraith to influence Lysaer.
quote:'Grief suffered in childhood broke the man’s spirit. If Eriegal dies, if he’s cast out, he might never outgrow his child’s rage for the family reft from him. Alive to accept the result of his choice, he might heal the wound of his losses.'
The above quote would seem to indicate being outcast could affect Lysaer's chances of healing, assuming being outcast is the same as being cast out. Perhaps Lysaer's individual little mote of awareness is truly seperate from the collective consciousness. I never really saw any obvious hints about how being outcast affects Lysaer's connection with Athera, but if the Fellowship no longer intercede on his behalf for residency, perhaps he has lost his connection. The imagery just after he was made outcast gave the impression the welcome mat had been withdrawn by at least some elements and there seemed no more tie to the mysteries. Yet within the bounds of normal time, everything seems the same as it always was. Janny is probably going to explain it all in the next book.
originally posted by Julie
Annette:
I too will have to reread Curse of the Mistwraith. I was under the impression that Lysaer attacked Arithon in the sesert from uncontrolled emotional rage. If he was not dehydrated, hungry, and exhausted he may have been more tempered. He came back for Arithon because his sense of justice would not allow him to let him die. He grew to like, even admitting to love Arithon. Doesn't mean he was resolved of his "childish" jealousy.
I also recall when he was cast out of the compact he did feel the sacred undefined part of himself ripped away. He is just very good at marshalling his appearances. He begins to understand that beauty sources creation and the mysteries at the grimward. I am holding out hope that this series will have a good resolution.
originally posted by Annette
I think you might mean groves instead of grimwards Julie. And it is unlikely Lysaer in human form would ever be allowed access to any of them. Personally I have seen no sign he has started to understand the importance of the mysteries, he has never had any interest in them. Although I am curious how that tree guarding will work out eventually. I doubt Lysaer will be guarding too many in his current form, that curse honours no agreement, especially not with a tree. I am thinking the answer to that mystery might be in the past.
If you were to put Lysaer and the mysteries of a grimward together, Athera would probably end up a lifeless cinder. Lysaer is destructive enough without adding chaos and deathless rage into the mix. Athera's mysteries are not found in any grimward. Imprisoning Lysaer in a grimward might preserve Athera's mysteries longer, but no one would ever deprive Lysaer of his freedom of choice like that. Only spirits of dead dragons end up imprisoned in grimwards.
originally posted by Julie
I was referring to the part in ? Fugative Prince when Lysaer sends up a bolt of light to call the Hanshire troop from the grimward. At the same time Asandir sends Sulfin Evend through. Can't remember the words but Lysaer is acutely aware that his gift pales next to magecraft sourced from Ath's mysteries. There are a few seemingly minor mentions like this- only a couple of sentences scattered throughout the books.
originally posted by Sleo
I remember that, Julie. I think Lysaer does 'get it' from time to time, but he seems to lose it as fast as he gets it. He also has a basic suspicion of mage craft, and envies Arithon his training, which Lysaer didn't get because the mage who trained Arithon refused to train him. A sore point, I'm sure.
originally posted by Annette
Lysaer had no power to call anyone from a grimward, nor were they near the grimward. He was just calling up power in defiance, in ignorant fear of the unknown. His reaction after the uncanny event of Sulfin's appearance, he wanted to dismiss the chord of grand mystery that had touched him. He was not interested in understanding it. He ended up not only misunderstanding it, but as usual decided it was evil.
quote:Denial remained. If sorcery was wrought from the heart of life's source, if music and grand harmony and clean balance framed its powers, then Lysaer rocked on the edge of the abyss. All that he strove to accomplish in the world became unveiled as a misguided illusion.
"No." Lysaer shut his eyes, his two hands locked and shaking. Conflicted by self-honesty and devastated pride, he ached through a moment of absolute crisis, before he recalled his own truth: the adepts of Ath's brotherhood once sought to sway him the same way. They had used such diabolically crafted illusion to distort his perception, and blind honor, and convince him that Arithon s'Ffalenn was born innocent.
Indeed, what better way to seduce a mortal will from right action than to cloak perfect evil in a seamless, evocative beauty?.
Fugitive Prince pg 511-512 pb 2007 ed.
Definitely no sign of enlightenment came from that experience. Lysaer's wilful pride will not allow him to admit he is wrong. His later experience with the centaur explained more clearly why.
originally posted by Annette
Not saying that Lysaer himself is evil, but he is right, what better way to seduce mortals into wrong behaviour than lead them astray with with evocative beauty. The false light blinding humanity to the truth and leading them astray is not the mysteries though.