originally posted by Julie
Lysaer did not disown only the zealots, it was the whole god worship thing, remember he became the Lord Mayor of Etarra,a mortal title. The creation of the religion and Lysaer as its godhead was a means to an end, or so Lysaer's warped mind perceived it at such. And you have to admit it was an effective strategy. As the Adept predicted, it got way out of hand and trying to disband or lessen decades of influence had to take time. So it took 5 years for Lysaer to make a treaty with the Clans of Rathain- did you think it would happen overnight? I imagine the 7 had very little directly to do with that so it was based on the Caithdein and Lysaer's merits as diplomats.(as an aside I wonder if this is why the new heir for Tysan was chosen).
It does matter who helps him see clearly- its a foundation for trust and friendship and Lysaer is very much alone since Sulfin Evend died.
Daliana may have burst into tears from the sheer responsibility she knew was her birthright. We know the Koriani will Always be scheming to break the compact.
originally posted by Annette
Lysaer would certainly have stretched even his diplomatic skills making peace with Barach, Rathain's clan chieftain, I am not sure Jeynsa would have been part of those negotiations. Splitting the role of chieftain and caithdein up, Jeynsa spoke for the crown, but Earl Barach seemed the one in charge of the clans. I would think Jeynsa suffered for her role in Arithon's downfall, the clans might not have even trusted her to be involved in the negotiations. I am curious to find out, if Lysaer dared a clan arrow in his heart, by negotiating personally with the clans, I have doubts. If Lysaer saved Sulfin Evend, he probably got that task. Janny will reveal some of that story hopefully.
Lysaer was elected as Lord Mayor of Etarra in 5667 in Grand Conspiracy. I did not notice it softening his stance on exterminating or enslaving all clanborn. He was doing a fair bit of both for decades as well as more grand campaigns to try and kill Arithon.
And creating a holy war was a means to an end, it will do what Lysaer wanted it to, with or without him. Lysaer knows that, disowning his role as Divine Prince has not stopped that religion, we will have to wait and see what Lysaer does next to try and stop his grand plan succeeding.
I doubt Lysaer made any attempt to lessen the influence his false religion had, the religion of the Light was already well entrenched in Rathain, not allowing the priests of the True Sect in to preach would not make a lot of difference to peoples faith. Lysaer would not have made any attempt to return to the old ways.
originally posted by Julie
I agree that Sulfen Evand may have acted as intermediary- Arithon had spread the word that he was not to be harmed and with his Caithdien oath obvious to talented people he would be relatively safe in clan lands. Why are so sure Lysaer had to save him from one big threat? He was willing to give his life for Lysaer's sanity and had multiple enemies- he knew how to watch his own back.
Lysaer did not have to go back to the "old ways" for the Light to dissipate over 250 years.
I should have been clearer - I spoke about Lysaer as Lord Mayor after Arithon was taken by the Koriani.
originally posted by Annette
So Julie, you think Lysaer admitted to not being Ath's avatar, just because Sulfin Evend politely asked him to admit the truth? How do you think Sulfin Evend managed to succeed?
And what would those religious fanatics do with someone they thought had corrupted their Divine Prince? What would they do with one they named the Heretic Betrayer? They were willing to burn Daliana for far less. Had burned herb witches and talent for being less of a threat to their beliefs and purpose. The curse was not active as far as we know, not unless the Koriani were meddling, you think Lysaer in his right mind would say nothing and watch Sulfin Evend burn? Yes Sulfin Evend was willing to die for Lysaer, as Caithdein he was bound by blood oath if Lysaer forced him to take a stand.
There is not much to indicate if it was out of grief, or outraged justice that Lysaer acted. I would suspect, if out of grief, Lysaer would go mad and burn them, rather than just disown them. Those fanatics do not seem to be quivering in fear of divine retribution.
originally posted by Julie
Sulfin Evand out grew his juevenile blind worship and recognized the flawed man, perhaps his own truth seeing talent was behind that. In any event he never could stomach or trust the motives behind the Light's hierarchy. Lysaer admitted he was not divine to SE because he was his only true friend. Lysaer knew that SE would not use that confession for anything but a foothold to healing.
I am sure the fanatics were just as blood thirsty over Sulfen Evand as anyone who threatened their power. They wanted to burn Daliana as an example to the citizens of Etarra and by extension Rathain of their assumed power over that region.
I am not sure what event you are talking about- I reread Initiate's Trial and could find nothing to indicate a threat to Sulfen Evend that Lysaer needed to rescue him from.
originally posted by Annette
If you cannot see the danger Sulfin Evend faced even after what happened in Stormed Fortress you will have to wait for Janny to reveal that bit of the past. But one thing that always worried me was this.
‘You are a loyal man, Sulfin Evend. There lies your strength and your downfall.’
Enithen Tuer - Traitor's Knot
Now a more fun thing to speculate on would be what symbol Lysaer wears on his chest as Lord Mayor of Etarra. Janny has been keeping that symbol under wraps for a very long time. Ath's avenging angel? Daelion's wheel. A wheel off Dharkaron's chariot maybe? Knowing those Etarran's it would be something pretentious, something punishing from the almighty maybe. Not likely to be a rose or an apple.
originally posted by Julie
I am not saying that Sulfin Evend was not in danger- that was true from the moment he challenged both the Koriani and the Light's high priests not to mention Lysaer under the full sway of the curse; just not seeing one particular story changing event.
I would think the Light and later the True Sect dogma precludes mention let alone displaying any symbols related to Ath Creator. However Lysaer may wear that as another snub to the True Sect leadership.
originally posted by Annette
But Etarra was built after the rebellion, so the old legends were still popular back then. They were not fighting for faith back then, just power. And as Ath's avatar, a symbol representing Ath would not ruffle any True Sect feathers. Not that they had Lysaer back for long. Lysaer never wore it while he was parading around as the Divine Prince, he wore a sunwheel back then. I would have though a sun more likely to be Ath's symbol, but we will have to wait and see.
And no one would object to a symbol seen to represent Etarra's Governor supreme/Lord Mayor for centuries, no matter what it was. Lysaer started with a gold star on blue, went to a gold sunwheel on white, I think the third likely related to a wheel, and gold on red. Fate's Wheel?
And the big story changing event in Sulfin Evend's life, was getting Lysaer to disown his fanatics. Daliana counted it a success, and then burst into tears at the thought of it. Janny might not have described it, but it was pretty obvious. The moment Enithen Tuer said he would have to face.
"One day fate will force you to choose which of two loyalties you will sacrifice."
Enithen Tuer - Traitor's Knot
I do not think Sulfin Evend could break that blood oath to the Fellowship. Which brings us back to what Maenalle said.
"From this day forward, expect an arrow from the shadows, poison in your cup, and a knife at your throat, among my people."
’ The Ships of Merior
The knife at his throat that saved him from the necromancers?
The arrow from his shadow behind the throne, Sulfin Evend, that saved him from?
I was actually wondering if all three events are something to do with necromancy, evil seems to be attracted to Lysaer. Maybe Janny will do a short story covering the missing parts of Sulfin Evend's life.
originally posted by Annette
I think Selidie Primes big showdown with Arithon will be occurring in one of the Chapter 13 subchapters.
SNORT!!! - couldn't resist…! Evil author grin, as set 13 steps towards denouement - YOU HAVE NO IDEA. Trust me, you truly, truly don't.
originally posted by Julie
Speculating is fun but I will wait to see how and when that confrontation takes place!
originally posted by Annette
Well I do not think Arithon could face Selidie till he has recovered himself, and healed from at least the last imprisonment, and maybe the next. And I doubt Selidie would be inviting him into her lair till she was desperate to be rid of him, having already failed with the obvious way.
And Elaira would have to reveal herself and give Arithon the Biedar knife, which I think Arithon needs to use before meeting Selidie. Elaira is likely to remain out of Arithon's sight for a while yet. So if all the blistering action is taking place in Chapter 13 main, maybe Selidie is next?
Could have happened earlier, but I would like to think Selidie/Morriel will wait to see if Lysaer and those fanatics of his can do the job first. The after effects of that still seem to be going in Chapter 13 main.
Of course Janny could surprise me, and Selide Prime or Morriel could be the unfriendly hand that saves Arithon. She does have the power to prevent a spirit crossing the wheel. But I doubt she would, she seems hell bent on destroying everything just to get the power to get her precious star spanning civilisation back.
originally posted by Julie
Arithon and Lysaer lasting the span of the books is a given. I also assume that the Beider knife is for breaking the spells that allow Morriel to inhabit Selidie. I will not be disappointed though if I am wrong. After all I have remained a fan of this series since the COTMW because I have been wrong about plot twists and developing characters!
originally posted by Annette
Arithon would not attack Morriel or anyone else with that Biedar Knife. Best go look at the reasons why the Fellowship could do nothing. It is not a blood binding Morriel used to possess Selidie, not the same thing as Lysaer was threatened with. And if Arithon did want to send Morriel on her way, I doubt he would need the knife for it, his Masterbard's talent should be able to manage it. But still he would not I think, unless he knew Selidie wanted her freedom.
Morriel set up her own downfall, Arithon will probably have to do nothing but appear before her and she will do the rest herself. Selidie Prime's promise on the Waystone is likely what will strip Morriel's spirit out of Selidie. Arithon would be blameless.
But a more mysterious thing to think on, is why Janny included the mention and bit in the glossary of Ship's of Merior and Warhost of Vastmark about Taerlin Waters and the unicorn slaughter. The lore the Masterbard's have kept alive would have meaning, I think Arithon of even Elaira might be paying that location a visit in one of the last two books. What could be learned there I wonder.
I think that might have been the location of Janny's sketch in the photo showing the draft manuscript.
https://www.facebook.com/JannyWurts/photos/a.274462809331879.57196.2605385240576 41/787678374676984/?type=3&theater
It could be some where else, Janny has mentioned many caves, some with things that chitter and seemed dangerous, underground caverns with nameless things, multiple caves around Paravia that could and have sheltered life. There are also numerous sacred springs, bit hard to tell what the sketch is.
originally posted by Julie
The Biedar knife is not an offensive weapon- so Arithon cannot attack with it. I agree that Selidie would somehow have to make her desire for freedom known, however her oath to the sisterhood appears to supercede any claim to freedom. Maybe he will use it to assist Lirenda. Perhaps Elaira can use it to cut her own ties to the Koriani!
originally posted by Annette
Well to use the knife to free Selidie, Arithon would have to attack her. Morriel is not going to agree to be banished, she is going to defend herself, she is not likely to even allow that knife any where near her. Arithon will not use the knife against anyone's will, so how could he use it to free Selidie, even if his empathy and compassion might know she wanted her freedom?
Morriel passes the wheel, Selidie and Lirenda should be freed. Lirenda is not capable of wielding the knife while under Selidie/Morriel's control. And if she had free will and Arithon handed her a knife, she would more likely try to kill him with it.
Elaira uses it to free herself of her koriani oath, her crystal would still self destruct. We already went over that a few times in the books, Elaira will stay Koriani, there would be a purpose to that. There have been hints. Elaira will have a Prime role in things to come. She might yet even get front place on the cover of Song of the Mysteries.
Elaira is to give the knife into Arithon's hand, it is his destiny written on the knife. What else might Arithon do with it? By the time Elaira can give Arithon the knife, he might be free of his tie to Rathain.
originally posted by Julie
I do not think the "blade" was not created to wield as a knife- that is to stab, cut, slice flesh. Rather we have seen it used to cut the bonds of necromancy and as source of backlash when Lysaer attacked Sulfen Evend with a light bolt. The Beidar elder said it was crafted with Arithon destined to use it to right the wrong against the Beidar by the Koriani. Arithon is clever, if he stays the path hoped by the Beidar, the forbidden knowledge stolen and corrupted by the Koriani can be purged without compromising anyone's free will or loss of life, including Elaira's crystal.
originally posted by Annette
But Arithon would have to tackle Selidie Prime to the ground, tie her up and then still fight her in order to use the knife. Arithon is not going to do it. He is not going to be responsible for such an act against anyone.
"Know that the purpose behind the blade’s shaping one day will make itself known to you."
-Initiate’s Trial
The purpose will make itself known to Elaira.
"The blade is a talisman, made ages ago for one purpose only: to end the defiled practice your Fellowship Sorcerers decry as the abomination of necromancy."
-Initiate’s Trial
Arithon has already put an end to one lot of necromancers. The second is likely again connected with Lysaer and would originate at Erdane, and probably fall to Arithon in a different manner. But would the third not be the Koriani Prime, where the knowledge originated? She can draw life from her initiate's, imprison spirits, prevent spirits crossing the wheel and has now taken possession of one of her initiate's. So Morriel is going to have to go.
"Accept your role for the sake of my people, that the wrongness done with our blameless heritage may be ended, put right, and reconciled."
So while Erdane's false priesthood, sends an emissary called the Light's Hope off to Etarra to petition the false avatar to come back to the fold, the Biedar send Elaira, Arithon's guiding Light on a mission that will eventually lead her back to Arithon, bearing the legacy that knife holds. The legacy is intended for Arithon, not Morriel, Selidie or Lirenda.
originally posted by Julie
Annette- read Sundering Star- that is the back story about Koriani interest in Beidar knowledge. The indiscriminate and twisted use of their stolen heritage led to many of the dark practices by the Koriani as well as necromancy. The Beidar have been looking for a way to erase that knowledge from the Koriani for eons. We do not know what Arithon will/can do if he comes face to face with Selidie, he has never shied from defending himself with deadly force if necessary. Maybe the knife was crafted to delete all the imprints embedded in the Major focus crystals. Or it may enhance and focus his talents as Masterbard to reach true resonance with those stones and by that clear them. Hopefully we will find out soon!
Elaira was viewed by the Elder as an emissary from the Koriani. The blade gives her a reason to seek him out sooner rather than later. She is not the counterpart to the priest sent by the True Sect to Ettarra. Rather I would say that Daliana plays that role.
originally posted by Clansman
Julie, Arithon has in fact "shied from defending himself with deadly force if necessary". After his trial in Kewar, he eschewed violence of any kind, and has pursued a non-violent path. Remember the raids on the Light's caravans in Initiate's Trial? No deaths. Arithon offered himself up as a sacrifice to the Kralovir, but it was the Fellowship, in fact, that wielded the force that destroyed them.
In fact, the futility of armed conflict and violence is one of the major themes of the Wars of Light and Shadow. If any issues are resolved by war, the consequences of using war to do so far reaching and very negative, even if a cause is just (i.e. World War II).
Violence will not be the means by which Arithon deals with Morriel/Selidie. I think that she will be hoisted on her own petard. I just don't have a clue what that will look like!