originally posted by Annette
Now Janny is up to the last chapters, and finishing off most threads, do we think Tarens managed to last to the end? Or get heroically torched to a cinder?
Although Lysaer might be saved yet, his prospects for a long happy life with Daliana seem dim. Might we end up with a widow in need of a new partner maybe, someone to make her happy? How would Tarens and Daliana do as a couple? And if Daliana is queen of 5 kingdoms?
Someone has to unify the town born, Lysaer seems the one to do it, cursed or not. He did want to rule all 5 kingdoms. Could Lysaer marry Daliana and not want to make her a queen? He said he wanted Arithon dead first, back in Talith's day, when he was offered kingship of just Tysan.
If he is offered all 5 kingdoms?
originally posted by Clansman
I don't see Lysaer ruling the five kingdoms or unifying the townborn. That would first suppose his redemption, which remains a big question mark. Even then, he is not sanctioned by the Fellowship for kingship.
No, it will be Arithon, with his innate mastery as a mage and his ability as Masterbard of Athera who will heal, and we don't know how that will happen. Remember, he spent a year in Davien's library, sucking in knowledge like a sponge. He combines that knowledge with his abilities as mage and bard, and a brilliance that is unmatched. Plus, he's got some really good people on his side: Elaira, Dakar, the Clans, and Tarens.
This said, we don't know what Paravia will look like after Song of the Mysteries. It won't be the same as it was before the rebellion. Davien was right, that the monarchical system that the F7 set up was unstable. The Townborn must "buy in" to Paravian survival, and understand that they are on a world that is not theirs. This will require transcendent change in selfish human nature, which is a tall order.
I think this is one of the points of this entire series. Dealing with human nature, both good and bad. In the words of Bruce Cockburn, "I never had a lot of faith in human beings, but sometimes we manage to shine."
originally posted by Sleo
Umm, I like that ,Clansman
originally posted by Julie
I agree with clansman that Lysaer will not be the unifying force he once was through violence and fear. He has come way to far in his struggle to claim autonomy from the mist wraith and now faces the same from the True Sect as well. Still, he is a good and fair leader when not under the influence of the curse.I am holding out for redemption. As far as Daliana is concerned, her part is not to be a queen- she is the conscience of the throne, an anchor for Lysaer to hold one to his humanity and maybe learn to trust being loved by a woman again. Unless she is given the same life span as Lysaer her story will play out in relatively short order. She may, as Sulfen Evand did, marry and produce talented off spring to ensure continuation of that line to support Lysaer. She may even need to seek a mate among her distant clan cousins.
Arithon might be the catalyst for eventual peace and unity through his unparalleled abilities, but what he sets in motion would have to be maintained by all parties involved. He loves peace, balance, and independence, not governing.
There was seemingly too much disparity between the clans and the rest of the population prior to the rebellion for the monarchy to have survived. Talented ambassadors to the Paravian do not need to be the ruling class as well. And yes, all human occupants need to buy into Paravian survival but a more egalitarian society may be more suited for this now since the Paravians and monarchs with the exception of Havish have been gone a long time.
And as far as humans shining? Maybe occasionally!
originally posted by Annette
Lysaer does not need to be redeemed to unite the town born, he was well on the way to uniting 4 kingdoms last time. He just shines and they blindly worship him. And now Shadow has been seen, they are afraid, need their shinning avatar back to protect them. How might they tempt him? Lysaer can never be a Fellowship sanctioned king, he is outcast from their compact, the Fellowship cannot reverse that. It would be the townborn offering Lysaer kingship.
While the curse was dormant, Lysaer managed to make peace with Rathain's clans. And Barach would have more reason than even s'Gannley to want Lysaer dead after what happened to Jieret, No where else were the clans more hated at that time than in Rathain, but Lysaer managed to establish a truce between the two groups. They were still separate, and would kill each other if caught trespassing on the others side, so not a long term solution, but the clans had a chance to recover.
But even if Lysaer can establish peace in 5 kingdoms, the clans are not likely to accept him as king, but they would not object to Daliana, even though she is townborn. Daliana is caithdein to Lysaer, although unlike her five kingdom counterparts, she has no kingdom to be regent of if anything happens to Lysaer. At least not yet.
So even under old kingdom law, Daliana is sanctioned to rule in the absence of crowned royalty. But she is Lysaer's Caithdein, not Tysan's or Rathain's, Lyaer has no kingdom. If Lysaer does accept a kingship offered by the towns, they will accept Daliana as their queen, she is townborn. Would Lysaer accept anything less than five kingdoms? He has all five and can make peace with the clans who is he going to fight? His own shadow?
Something has to go wrong even if it works out that way, nothing Lysaer builds while cursed is going to go right for him. Even if Lysaer can resist hunting Arithon down, those religious fanatics want the clans and Arithon dead, and Selidie Prime wants that compact broken. The necromancers have yet to be obvious but we know what side they will be on.
And we are not sure yet what those dragons want, a roast maybe. The dragons do not recognize mankind's right to live in Athera, the compact was between the Paravians and the Fellowship. If the dragons return what happens?
originally posted by Julie
Anette- Lysaer does not want to "rule" 5 kingdoms- if that was true he could have used his diplomatic skills to forge peace between clans and towns over the past 250 years. Instead he appears to have focused only on Rathain, shunning Tysan's True Sect rulers. We do not know if any relationship existed with Havish- There was no hint of aggression between them. Lysaer does not seek out fights that is not his nature- even when we first met him, he was more curious about Arithon and wanted to ease the restraints until Arithon blasted into him. Indeed if you reread the pre mistwraith part of the first book, it is Arithon who provokes (yes with the exception of the Red Desert)and puts up walls.
In any event Lysaer's sense of justice does not translate into blood lust- it is a means to balance and peace as are compassion,truth ,and temperance.
The dragons apparently did return- there was that bit in Initiate's Trial when Asandir douses the young one to get him to go back through the gate. There is a reference to the dragon derived carnage 50 years previously.
originally posted by DarthJazy
Julie I think I just fell in love with you haha love your point.
originally posted by Annette
A few of Lysaer's thoughts and words.
The scrying had shown him his enemy, and now the berserk need mauled through him, to tear living flesh and draw blood.
-The Ships of Merior
Raised to sick thrill, Lysaer savoured fierce strength brought to helpless, thwarted rage; he gloried in his ascendance, and as his victim weakened, he revelled in its pain. He twisted the spear, felt the blade slide past bone and bite deeper, to hack and ravage and bleed white.
-The Ships of Merior
Our cause is unfinished until this whole land has been raised against the Master of Shadow. When all cities stand against him, how can this Spinner of Darkness win aught but misery and failure? Our work must be diligent. Until every heart lies barred against his wiles, our enemy will have foothold to seed ruin.’
-Warhost of Vastmark
When the hour arrived, and the Master of Shadow was at last brought down, Lysaer resolved to leave something brighter, more enduring, than a history of war. From defeat would come a monument of shining strength. His work would bequeath the five kingdoms a benefit beyond the cost of Arithon’s death, and bestow upon Athera a structure of permanent protection to outlast all creeds and boundaries. For as long as men kept records and built cities, his name would be remembered for justice.
-Warhost of Vastmark
‘I sit before you as this criminal’s opposite, my gift of light our best counterforce to offset his shadow. For this reason, I must decline Tysan’s kingship. My purpose against Arithon must stay undivided for the sake of the safety of our people.’
-Fugitive Prince
‘We are gathered here, in strict secrecy, for the purpose of arranging how the word and the light will be made to span all five kingdoms on this continent ‘’
-Grand Conspiracy
'Once, I thought I knew who I was! I believed my own goodness could never have ridden a storm that sought visceral thrill by crazed butchery.’
-Stormed Fortress
originally posted by Julie
Annette: The last quote is taken from a wonderful scene where we see Lysaer free from the mistwraith enough to speak truthfully and with disgust about himself. He calls Arithon his half brother and mother's bastard but not criminal, or evil incarnate and acknowledges the blood bath and misery he himself created was due to the childish jealousy that the mistwraith used to ensnare. The other quotes you listed were when Lysaer was firmly under the influence of the curse.
DarthJazy- you are sweet.
originally posted by Annette
But Lysaer only awakened from his black cloud of hatred because of Alithiel's mystical song, it was only for that short time he could think more clearly, and still some of his perceptions were wrong, still warped the curse he was fighting. Those three odd days gave Lysaer hope, and the foothold to start fighting for control. Arithon was protected by a fortress and a small army, he is helpless when using Alithiel or his music that way.
The curse is a lot stronger now, Lysaer is about to fall into his old role as divine avatar. His hatred under the guise of that false religion has spread though at least 4 kingdoms. It might not be as strong in Shand or Melhalla due to Arithon's intervention, but still Athera has only one religion and it has had a while to spread. They would be united in their fear and hatred of the Spinner of Darkness. Lysaer struggled to control his fanatics at Alestron, even if Lysaer becomes strong enough to fight against the curse on his own, he cannot control the holy war he set in motion. He bound them to his false cause, made them believe Arithon was the root of all evil, who it was his divine calling to destroy. Look at what both Sethvir and the adept said at Althain tower when Lysaer was outcast from the compact.
Although when Ath's Adept said Lysaer would get what he wanted, I was thinking there might have been more to it that just Arithon's death, which is not something Lysaer in his right mind actually wants.
I am wondering, if this gets Arithon his hearts desire, will Lysaer also get to be what he wants to be?
originally posted by Julie
Didn't think Lysaer's perceptions were wrong- they were after all his own. He told SE about his inner struggles since the mistwraith took control, what Alithiel's song did was allow him and Sulfen Evand the foot hold to mount a realistic defense. Arithon's sacrifice in maintaining that song was for Lysaer as much as those who left the war zone. He does not seek death but will risk that for the cause of peace and balance- his choice.
The last book does not really mention the True Light as the adopted religion of the continent outside of Tysan where the Sect maintains a strict Theocracy. It seemed more like stories to scare children and the weak minded. We do not know what Lysaer will do now. Repeating the same story line over and over is not Janny's style- the themes are rewoven but progress. Repetative story telling is reserved for lazy serial writers.
I am so looking forward to the next book!
originally posted by Annette
Lysaer thought Talith got pregnant because she wanted to hurt him for putting her aside and his cruelty since that estrangement. Talith wanted to save him! From his own creation, that false religion. Sully that divine image of his, and wound his pride, to get her husband back.
Still the curse was affecting Lysaer, he knew how much Talith loved him, has insight, knows people, yet could not fathom the real reason behind her actions.
originally posted by Julie
Talith did not have a clue about the curse until she was Arithon's "guest" and mistakenly thought strong emotion and political intrigue would being him to his senses. She was offered help by Mearn S'Brydon but could not see beyond her deep love for Lysaer.
originally posted by Annette
Talith saw well enough after being locked in that tower for three years.
quote:‘I married a man who now claims to be god sent.’
‘The meetings in this tower seek to seed a religion. Cerebeld and his mad-dog fanatic, Vorrice, have been consecrated to carry out a divine mission. Lysaer makes long-range plans to unleash a holy war against the Master of Shadow.’
‘If I can smear Lysaer’s reputation just enough to tear down this false claim to godhood, the world might come to bleed a little less.’
‘I might win back a husband who is human if his gifted power to win a following is besmirched.’
Fugitive Prince
I should think Sulfin Evend succeeded where Talith failed, although we have yet to see what method he chose. The 'arrow from the shadows' might be a good guess. Show Lysaer can bleed like any mortal, then test him. Would Lysaer admit the truth, to save Sulfin Evend's life? Or let his fanatics burn one he loved as a brother. We should find out next year some time.
originally posted by Julie
Talith's intentions were noble but she counted on a population of intelligent people- non existent in fantasy or reality. She also could not know how powerful the curse was.
We have a pretty good idea, which was discussed above. When Lysaer left to assist any survivors of Avenor he was armed with a new found sense of wanting to reclaim his autonomy. I would be surprised if Sulfen Evand did anything more than continue to challenge the Sect's hierarchy as he had always done. Lysaer made his own decision to split with them. Also Arithon leaves the picture within a few short years after Alestron which gave Lysaer a break from the worst of the curse. Sulfen Evand obviously had time to find a wife, produce off spring, and write a detailed instruction manual for future generations. I like to think he died of old age.
originally posted by Annette
All Talith had to do was have the child to besmirch Lysaer's image. If she had escaped to Etarra, Lysaer's plans of godhood would have been trashed, along with his newly started false religion, the gossip would not have been kind. They killed Talith, before she got the chance to make it publicly known she was pregnant. Lysaer's fanatics, were saving him from having his image sullied with the public execution of his wife and anything else that might have come out if there had been a public trial. Probably better for Lysaer's conscience it happened the way it did. Lysaer will eventually have to face his own weighing of conscience, and judge himself, best not to add wife killer to the tally.
But still if the plan had worked, things could have worked out a bit better. The people might not have been so willing to believe Lysaer was divine, they would be fighting for Lysaer and his false cause rather than for his false religion and faith. And Arithon would have been just a criminal who deserved death, rather than the root of all evil, who they are going to blame all their woes on, all the evil others do, and all the deaths Lysaer's bloody wars caused. Arithon will forgive them, but hopefully he has his bleeding heart s'Ffalenn compassion under control by then, and is not going to think himself guilty of everyone else's mistakes. But with Janny and Arithon, you never know.
And it would be nice if Sulfin Evend did live to old age, with that family he longed for and obviously got the chance to start. Maybe Lysaer did save him from his religious fanatics, Sulfin Evend and Daliana saved, third time unlucky.
Why unlucky?
‘Would you have me draw a brother’s blood? That’s unlucky.’
-Curse of the Mistwraith
The sacrifice meant a half-sibling must inherit the titles. No felicitous appointment, to succeed Teir’ s’Taleyn, after the primary candidate.
-Stormed Fortress
At the helm, far from cheerful, Arithon s’Ffalenn whistled a ballad about a wicked stepson who murdered to steal an inheritance.
-Warhost of Vastmark
Well Arithon did want to give Lysaer Alithiel, and Lysaer is Arithon's closest living relative. Lysaer goes to all that trouble, and then Arithon gives it to him anyway? Might not be related, but the irony if he did.
originally posted by Julie
Anyone who witnessed Lysaer's luminal displays in a society where only sorcerers and koriani work the mysteries would consider him a cut above human. Add to that the fact that Lysaer and Arithon do not age, is it any wonder they are considered god like?
Talith's pregnancy would not have brought down the nascent religion- she would have been accused of infidelity ( not untrue). She died because the cabal could not afford competition from someone schooled in political intrigue. Not to mention their disdain towards women except for sexual encounters. Elaine was picked partly because she was very young and meek so her escape shook that same cabal of now fully entrenched necromancers.
I assume that Sulfen Evand got some help and protection from the Seven just as Daliana has and so they did not need saving by Lysaer, maybe we will see more of that back story, I have a feeling it is not necessarily so grand.
As far as inheritance is concerned, if the monarchies are no longer necessary in a post mistwraith world, no one needs sacrifice anything.
originally posted by Annette
I should think like Daliana, Lysaer would have had to have saved Sulfin Evend from being burned alive by those religious fanatics of his. A peril of his own making. Sulfin Evend already brushed against that peril in Stormed Fortress, Lysaer sent him off on a frivolous errand to keep him safe. Maybe the way Sulfin Evend separated Lysaer from his fanatics involved deliberately harming Lysaer in public view. To prove he was mortal just like anyone else, and could bleed. The arrow from the shadows. An apparent assassination attempt by his own shadow behind the throne. Caithdein lay down their lives to test princes, and Sulfin Evend had already considered something similar in Traitor's Knot, but he could not betray Lysaer's trust back then. He would not I think aim to kill, but to wound, we will probably eventually find out. The choice Enithen Tuer said he would have to make, which oath to betray. The Koriani at Hanshire said Sulfin Evend would betray Lysaer. He would betray Lysaer in order to save him! What would Lysaer do to save one he loved as a brother from being burned alive by his religious fanatics?
Tell the truth maybe? He was no divine prince. Or could Lysaer disown his false religion and save a friend without admitting he was a liar?
originally posted by Julie
Lysaer's interference with the True Sect "trial" of Daliana only happened because Dakar was able to appeal to his sense of justice in time: before the effect of the Koriani fetch became too strong.
Perhaps the Fellowship intervened in a similar way with Sulfen Evand. In any event I do not think the events surrounding the "schism" were so complicated with SE contemplating seriously wounding Lysaer to test him etc. He already used brute force on both princes in earlier books including pulling a blade on a critically injured Arithon.
Sulfen Evand would have to choose between 2 oaths but that does not mean he had to betray Lysaer the man whose side he stood by when ties to the True Sect were severed.
originally posted by Annette
The True Sect never existed till after Lysaer disowned his zealots. They are just a more militant Tysan based branch of the original religion of the Light, that was formed after Lysaer had disowned them.
Each time Sulfin Evend was seen to have harmed Lysaer, look at how the religious fanatics reacted. The last time being at the siege of Alestron where Lysaer had to send him away. Almost thirteen years later, how would they react to a deliberate attempt to kill their savior? We have the arrow from the shadows clue, maybe it was just the ceremonial censure and no blood was spilled? Seems unlikely though, why would a townborn use that method?
Sulfin Evend would have no choice of which oath to betray, his oath to the land came first, he was bound heart, body and mind by a blood oath. If Lysaer endangered the compact or Athera, Sulfin Evend would have to act.
Perhaps even though the Alliance of Light was disbanded, as head of the religion, Lysaer wanted to add Havish to the fold? Or his priesthood wanted Havish, and were going to use Lysaer to get it. Or it could be some as yet unknown peril. Or even the old one of wanting to wipe out the clans, perhaps Rathain's clans were at risk. The treaty that gave Rathain's clans protection was not signed till 5 years after Lysaer disowned his fanatics.
It matters not what help Lysaer had to see clearly, it was his power and sense of Justice that saved Daliana, and perhaps Sulfin Evend from the peril he himself had made. Having succeeded twice that might help Lysaer when faced with the same situation a third time. If he failed the first time, the wound from that could also help Lysaer, similar to how Jieret's death affected Arithon. Sulfin Evend would have been around 50 years old when he made his choice of which oath to betray, he would have had almost 10 years of peace possibly a few years longer of retirement to start a family. Did Lysaer save him?
Why did Daliana burst into tears when she said Sulfin Evend succeeded? The curse should not have been active, Arithon was imprisoned, but the Koriani did want to be rid of Sulfin Evend. Did they meddle? Were they as usual behind a plot to try and break the compact? Grabbing Arithon did not work out as expected, what other mischief could Selidie Prime have been hatching?