originally posted by Dina
Ooh! Ooh! "Shining compassion" where Lysaer's gift of Light is "shining," and Arithon's hereditary geas of compassion is "compassion." Which brings us back to the very first premise in CotMW: Athera needed Arithon and Lysaer working in tandem to save it.
Perhaps that teamwork applies to charming dragons as well.
Otherwise, I was going to make a joke about Lysaer's silver tongue and charming a dragon being child's play.
originally posted by Julie
Not sure how steadfast the faith was. Both town and clan held to timeworn rituals sourced from a belief in Ath creator. Sensitivity was inbred in what became the clans where as the townspeople accepted it in wise women and Ath's Adepts until the Mistwraith's capture,but the eruption of distrust and hatred of course being ignited by Davien. It seems from the pre stories that Athera's ruling class (the clans)were not any different from any other privileged members of any society. They did not have a monopoly on intelligence, creativity, or compassion. What they had were the talents to face the Paravians as ambassadors for humanity under the Compact.
Asander said in one of the books than the clans observe the rituals and ties to the Compact but do not really understand why.
It was pretty easy for Lysaer to sway the townsmen who were that much more removed from the basic reasons for the Compact.
originally posted by Annette
Yet before Lysaer came along they still all believed in Ath Creator, now the townborn believe in a false religion and most of them still think Lysaer is an Ath sent avatar. They worship a false light, while Ath's adepts are shunned or driven out, thus further weakening the ties to Ath.
Ath and the compact are not the same, one is a faith in the mysteries and the prime source, one a set of rules to ensure mankind and Athera's mysteries both survive. The townborn have forgotten the old ways, and no longer abide within the rules of the kingdom charters which were drawn up to ensure their safety. They weaken Athera by their ignorant ways, and were bound to eventually break the compact, whether Lysaer lead them astray or not. Davien and the Mistwraith's curse have just speeded things up a bit.
While there was distrust of the clans since the rebellion, Ath's adepts, the herb witches and mage gifted healers and other mage talent was still welcome in most towns till Lysaer took a dislike to them. Now the only talent in the towns are the false religion's minions, who would not be working to strengthen Athera and her mysteries, and at worst would be another lot of necromancers siphoning life from Athera or from the people who trust them.
Athera's talent needs to be free, both the Koriani and the false religion is siphoning her born talent off to do harm. And Ath's Adepts would be getting fewer as the times get harder, few would join the white brotherhood, and like the Paravian's some adepts might lose hope and die. The clans follow most rituals by rote now, not really understanding the significance of them, but still they protect the free wilds, which would help keep a balance.
Havish has a lot of the townborn talent that fled Lysaer's persecution, as well as the descendents of the clan blood lines sent there to ensure their survival. Havish falls some of those talented bloodlines could be lost. Which further endangers the compact, and humanity's survival on Athera. Ath's adept at Althain said every mortal enclave on this continent would fall as victim to Lysaer's cause. That does not bode well for Havish, who is the only kingdom with a Fellowship sanctioned ruler fully empowered to defend the land and those who live there. Arithon has only the tie to the land, although he defends, he has not accepted kingship, and he is struggling just to survive. The compact requires both the clans, and a Fellowship chosen ruler to act as an intermediary. There was no king or queen that we or the townborn knew about during the 500 years most of the royals were banished from Athera, but there was always at least one royal Scion of Havish on Athera under the compact. No idea why that line was chosen to stay behind, but there could be a significant reason for it.
Havish's royal line has skipped generations due to the long rule of the queen that died in the last book. That might cause problems with the succession if the older ones have all died off and they lose the younger generation defending the kingdom as empowered rulers, or through the fighting, or the remaining ones are just too young to help.
And if the worst happens, Lysaer even though not sanctioned by the Fellowship to rule, could end up the last royal scion on Athera, and would by then be free of the curse, but outcast from the compact. I am wondering if being free of the compact and Fellowship sanction might be an advantage some how?
If the compact is broken by losing something irreplaceable, the Fellowship is bound by their original calling,to ensure Paravian survival the plan was to restore Athera's resonance by wiping out mankind if they threatened that survival. But how would that increase Athera's resonance once it has dropped? It was the high resonance of Athera they were trying to preserve, to ensure Paravian survival. Yet the Paravians can survive on the buffer worlds for a while, which are lower resonance worlds. Athera's resonance might drop temporarily and by some miracle recover after only a limited time. The Paravians would survive. What happens to humanity during that dark time? There would some where be a plan for humanities salvation.
We will have to wait and see what surprises Janny springs on us. Could be something completely different, that was just a very long bit of speculation.
originally posted by Julie
We know that both humanity and mage craft survive. Unless there is another wave of space travelling remnants who make their way to Athera at a later date (not likely). We know really nothing about the later mage scholars of the future except their curiosity of (what will be) ancient history. So I am not concerned about Athera's energetically based eco system. As far as the towns are concerned, Tysan is the only place where the True Sect thrives and really only because of it's tyrannical policies. The other areas may follow the Sect during this renewed crusade not because of belief in their dogma, but as a way to save their own skins.
Now it is true that Lysaer's lightning bolts and the arcane shield raised in the protection of Havish made believers of some- most notably the Hatchet. He was however already a blood thirsty sadist.
originally posted by Annette
Even in Havish, where there is Fellowship sanctioned crown rule Lysaer's religion seems to have taken hold of the townborn if there was a screaming rabble on the docks at Torwent. No one in Havish should have had a reason to hate Arithon back then, but it is hard to stop the spread of a religion. Even though Arithon's plan for Shand was a success, it would seem likely Lysaer's false religion eventually got a hold down there as well, they just might not be as fanatical. Even after 250 years, they might still snicker away at some of the old stories and re-enactments concerning the religion of the Light and their priesthood.
The more militant off shoot of the original religion, the True Sect only has Tysan under their complete control, like the necromancers before them, they would have sent emissaries off to other kingdoms. Lysaer might burn a few temples in Tysan and have no affect on the True Sect, who would probably make Etarra their new home. Now would Lysaer burn Etarra to the ground? Might be doing some good if he did.
And once Lysaer becomes more active in controlling the religion he created, any non believers amongst the townborn would fall for the false light. Lysaer would probably take control of the situation rather than let the True Sect or Koriani direct the religion he created. Yet both seem to have no trouble controlling Lysaer, and with Daliana as the partner he loves, there would be the weakness Lysaer always thought his enemies would exploit. Lysaer was just confused about who his enemies really were.
The arcane shield raised to protect Havish, would not have made any more believers for the false religion, and would have separated a lot from it. Like the sleepers who awoke after hearing Caithwoods awakened trees, or those sleepers at Alestron many townborn who woke would not fight again.
The Hatchet was just too full of hate for the change to last. Be interesting to see if it helped Lysaer at all, or what he felt about it.
Lysaer's thoughts on such matters in the past might be of interest, he has given them a few times. Ath's hostel, the power that brought him Sulfin Evend, when Lysaer met the centaur's sending. What changed the dreamers who awoke after trying to burn Caithwood, or those who dreamed under the influence of Alithiel's song at Alestron?
What is it that the True Sect think are shadow touched heretical dreams?
originally posted by Julie
It is not hard to amass a screaming rabble- look at sports events, pop idols, so called "talent" reality shows. The citizens were offered a spectacle at which they can vent their anger, and frustration. They were already under military control by the fanatical True Sect who kill anyone they consider heretical. This is not proof of conversion to that "religion".
Dakar severed the arcane link between Koriani and Lysaer at the end of Initiate's Trial. Of course Janny's stories are not usually so straight forward. Lysaer hates being controlled by anyone- he was constantly warned off the Koriani by Sulfen Evand. He will fight possession by them as he does the mistwraith. He is a proud man and has to solve problems on his own merits. While he claims to distrust any type of sorcery- his close encounters with arcane powers sourced by balance (truth, love, Ath)have given him pause- he did not dismiss those thoughts. They may be what has helped him so far on his path to redemption.
originally posted by Annette
Lysaer created his false religion as a means to get them to hate Arithon and anyone possibly connected with him, that was the real purpose of creating it in the first place, to make it easier to kill Arithon. Torwent's people seem to have got that bit real quick, True Sect had only just gained control of the town. The unreasoning hatred would probably be enough, no need to get into cantrips and prayers to the light. Once infected with that hatred, it might just smoulder away, even though crown rule is continued in Havish. Crown rule would be connected with Shadow, what might blaze up with a little more encouragement?
How did the Koriani start the rebellion against the high kings in the first place? How did they raise enough hatred and greed to cause a bloodbath? They are good at warping people though emotion, look at what they did to Jaelot's guard captain, or the s'Brydion brothers. There is only one kingdom under Fellowship chosen crown rule now, and Selidie Prime would go to any lengths to break the compact. Morriel was prime the last time the townborn rebelled against crown rule, and Selidie is no where near as sane as Morriel once was. And it is not hard to amass a screaming rabble willing to murder the innocent for blind faith. Both our history and Paravia's has plenty of examples.
The Koriani never attempted to possess Lysaer, just strengthen the influence of the curse to get him to do what they wanted. It was the necromancers who aimed for possession. Lysaer is unlikely to fall for that trap again, but there will be other ways to control him. From Sethvir's warning to Lysaer it does seem like Lysaer will gain enough control of the curse to not want Arithon dead, yet be powerless to prevent it. What weakness did Lysaer think his enemies would use against him? How did Selidie get Arithon under her control?
originally posted by Julie
Not sure if Torwent's people really "hate" Arithon or the misery inflicted under the True Sect. Mob rule is ugly no matter the provocation and human beings seem primed for it. If the Sect did not give Torwent's populace a scapegoat to vent their anger at, they are more likely to be faced with revolt at some point. The people of Tysan (if our glimpse during the last book is any indication) live under tyranny- their adherence to the Light appears more for survival in a barely viable land than any real devout feelings. The True sect wield sorcery (backed by a better fed military) to suppress the masses- not much different than any brutal dictatorship.
originally posted by DarthJazy
I think I need to do a reread of said book
originally posted by Annette
Athera has only one religion, and every where but Havish, anyone else who might have opposed it, has been removed, oppressed, ostracized or killed.
Arithon was set up as the scapegoat to take the blame for the havoc caused by the change in the flux and the madness that caused. Apart from the mayhem and fires caused by his escape at Torwent, he used Shadow to put out the fires. A hysterical populace eager to burn him, is not likely to take being covered in shadow well, no matter that it was to help them. And then that paragon of virtue Lysaer went and showed off his bright light to further blind people, they fall for him every time. Cannot say either Light or Shadow is a myth now, both have been seen. If belief in Lysaer's false religion had not already taken hold in Havish, the events of the last book would change that.
And on Lysaer's feeling of self worth, once he is free of the curse and realizes the truth of what he has done and the innocents he was responsible for murdering. Think of how Arithon responded when he realized he had struck down Caolle. While in the grip of the curse, he only saw Caolle as an enemy. Heart and soul of compassion that Arithon is, he felt nothing but hate and blood lust. Lysaer never had the training to resist that curse, and compassion is a lot more lenient than justice.
Why were Lysaer's hands burned when he helped imprison the Mistwraith? Think about it.
And when you re-read the books, look for the true Lysaer hidden in those pages, because the killer without a conscience is not who he is. He never had a chance of fighting that curse by himself.
originally posted by DarthJazy
i fully agree with you Annette I firmly believe that Lysaer is the sacrificial lamb for everything that the F7 was to accomplish and god forbid they ever put Lysaer above Arithon but if they did they may never get their precious black rose prophecy. I can also see the F7 blaming Lysaer for humans breakign the contract and being thrown off athera so that humanity may stay.
originally posted by Julie
From what I remember Lysaer extended himself in the final moments to imprison the Mistwraith and came into contact with forces well beyond his control, hence the burns. The sorcerer he was guided by /partnered with allowed him to make that sacrifice because in the end they wanted to protect Arithon from possession by the Mistwraith. They said somewhere that this was a calculated decision because Arithon's powers were too great to be controlled by that entity. Of course they were also thinking of the Black Rose.
Lysaer did not use light in the last book to sway people to the True Sect, He lost his battle for self control which is why he allowed the adoration- they delivered him to close proximity to Arithon. He would have burned those masses to a crisp if they impeded his journey to Havish.
originally posted by Annette
Lysaer created that false religion in the first place to sway the people and turn them against Arithon. So he can only blame himself that they worship him every time he uses his light, not that Lysaer in the grip of the curse minds all that adoration to feed his vanity. Lysaer in his right mind could burn every True Sect temple in Tysan, and only make more religious fanatics.
And no, I do not believe it was the Mistwraith that burned Lysaer's hands.
originally posted by Annette
But a more fun bit of speculating what do we think the symbol represents on Arithon's new attire, which seems to be fit for a king.
https://www.facebook.com/JannyWurts/photos/a.274462809331879.57196.2605385240576 41/274462812665212/?type=1&permPage=1
https://www.facebook.com/JannyWurts/photos/a.274462809331879.57196.2605385240576 41/420140158097476/?type=1&permPage=1
Does not match Halliron's colours, so does not seem likely to be for Athera's Masterbard, and the stormy weather and Arithon's expression are not bright and sunny, more likely royal attire. Not Rathain's leopard, a new/old symbol representing a combined Paravia maybe, the Paravians must have had one, although I thought the black falcon and crescent moon might have been theirs. There is no banner for the Paravians in Althain tower that we have seen. New symbol for Athera? Ath? Seems likely to mean something rather than Arithon has suddenly taken a liking to wearing gold and what might be jewels. Seems a bit sparkly, maybe a quartz in there that was once Elaira's?
And on symbols, Lysaer took up Etarra's after he gave up his sunwheel, Janny has been keeping Etarra's a secret for decades, 9 books and although we know Etarra's colours are scarlet and gold we have no idea what their symbol is, Janny has never described it, despite their banner being in a lot of wars and the city often being in the books, must be a reason to keep it as a surprise. From the last book we know it is big, it covers Lysaer's chest. Etarra was built after the rebellion, and they are a pretentious lot, so I do not think it is a rose, taken up because of their beautiful roses in the courtyard of the fountains. They were once famed for their apples, but they got rid of them, seems unlikely to be an apple. Something more inspiring maybe? Lysaer went from a star, to a sunwheel to something else. Something else round maybe?
A wheel of Dharkaron's Chariot? The whole chariot seems a bit complex. And Dharkaron Avenger's almighty justice seems to fit, with Etarra's prententions and Lysaer. Or maybe Daelion Fatemaster's wheel? Still something punishing from the Almighty. And is Lysaer going to keep Etarra's symbol, go back to his precious sunwheel, or maybe end up coming up with a new symbol for a new city? Lysaer seems to have lost Etarra to the True Sect, if he burns the temples in Tysan, he might have to level Etarra to be rid of them. Build a new city from the rubble, that sounds familiar, Arithon did say it would save a lot of bother, and that was before the necromancers and True Sect moved in. Maenalle also said said, ‘If you want my earnest opinion, there can be no remedy for Etarra, except to raze it clean to the ground.’
Well Arithon or the Fellowship were never going to do it, but an angry Lysaer? Or are we waiting for an angry dragon to do it?
originally posted by Julie
to my old eyes it looks like a caduceus- a symbol of medicine. So maybe a healer's badge?
originally posted by Clansman
It appears to be the same outfit Arithon is wearing in the famous (to us, at least) Exile's Return. Green cloak, cuffed with leopard, but the symbol on the chest is mostly obscured by his right arm holding Alithiel.
The symbol on his chest in the facebook post does look a bit like a caduceus.
This said, he is still looking every inch the Tier s'Ffalenn, Prince of Rathain.
originally posted by Julie
Yes he does. I could not find the Exile's Return - I remember the cape, sword, and leopard trim, but wasn't there black somewhere in there?
originally posted by Annette
Strange, I cannot actually see Alithiel anywhere on Arithon, he is holding something in his right hand, but it did not look like Alithiel to me.
The symbol's shape does look something like a caduceus but I do not think it is. I was thinking more the three aspects of the mysteries, but we will have to wait to find out.
Here is a picture of Exile Returned to compare them.
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j215/aussie500/Janny%20Wurts/Exile%20returned_ zps7htzkewi.jpg~original
Arithon never actually wore this attire in the game, I think it is more symbolic of what Arithon is. Stormy sky seems about the same, maybe reflecting Arithon's state of mind. Arithon looks more relaxed in the newer painting, no death grip on the cloak attempting to fight the wind.
originally posted by Julie
Annette- thanks for the link. The jerkins, vests? are different. The newer painting really looks like a symbol while the older one has reddish trim. I also agree with the facial expression- Arithon looks way more relaxed- must be having a holiday in California
originally posted by Annette
I always thought those silver beads on the Exile Returns tabard to be strings of stars, strung across the black velvet of Shadow, bounded by passion and song. With a very large gap there in the middle under the cabochon emerald set above Arithons heart, which I took to represent compassion.
The green for compassion
The red always reminded of blood and sacrifice, but will go with passion.
The silver for song, but could be wrong
The brown for the land? With a black shape like a tree on the boots, with a light at the top of the tree. The dreaming trees are the foundation?
The hidden grey on the underside of the cloak for the mysteries again bounded by a green ribbon for compassion
The black and white weave on the edge of the cloak for creation? Again with the red ribbon on the front edge for passion? Light and shadow, together.
The intricacies of the belt buckle are beyond my imagination, I will guess and say AN, male and female, one. Could be a sun and moon style of belt buckle maybe.
The fur, maybe the yellow for joy with the fires of inspirations although the leopard fur always reminded me of the opposite of the starry black and silver night sky.
I do think the Exile Returned outfit still represents something, even though it does not have a recognizable symbol. Janny will eventually explain exactly what the symbolism in Arithon's more interesting attire is. In the newer painting the cloak and shirt seem the same, the fur trim, still lots of green, not so much black and the new symbol. Arithon has not worn gold before except for the white gold of his signet ring, which looked more silver than gold. The crown he never wore would have been white gold as well.
So what does that sparkly gold symbol represent?
It looks gold from the glimpse we have, seems to have white glints, not the shine on emeralds.
As to the earlier thing with Lysaer and the burned hands. I believe Lysaer's own gift of light burnt his hands. Think about it, read the actual info given in the book. Why was Asandir grieving? How did burned hands affect Lysaer's future? Lysaer had some elemental problems later in Fugitive Prince, when he was outcast from the compact, the source of the problem could be related.
Lysaer seemed to be burned around the same time he was viewing something he had not yet done, use his gift of light to attack Arithon.