originally posted by DarthJazy
It is hard work being the only Lysaer fan and thinking the F7 for the ones that should have to answer for all Lysaer has done while under the control of the mistwraith.
originally posted by Dina
I used to feel sorry for Lysaer. Poor guy, stuck with this curse and everything and doomed to be its slave.
Now, I don't. It all boils down to when his mother left. As a 3-year-old boy, Lysaer would not have understood the reasons for her leaving or had the maturity to realize that it had nothing to do with him. Being a 3-year-old child, he would have thought she left him. His father does nothing to alleviate this insecurity, probably is unaware of it. He doesn't help by teaching Lysaer to hate Arithon's father and the rest of that country.
By the time Lysaer reaches Curse of the Mistwraith, he's marinated in a nice cocktail of insecurity and unlove (perceived from his mother, actual from his father). He hasn't learned how to deal with these feelings, so he's respressed them. He blames his mother for leaving, a behavior he learned from his father. All of this together means that Lysaer doesn't know how to treat women. He was never going to be able to treat them properly.
It's too easy to say the Curse brought it out in him. I would say it was latent inside him, and the Curse only wore away inhibitions which would have been worn out on their own in any case. What I'm trying to say is: the damage is already there, and the Curse doesn't affect anything that would have happened in any case without it.
It's like a drunk husband blaming the alcohol for beating his wife instead of his own actions.
I use women as one example, but Lysaer has manifested this behavior in other areas of his personal and public decision making as well.
originally posted by Annette
Yet the earls daughter on Dascen Elur I doubt noticed any insecurities in her handsome golden prince. The prince we saw before he met Arithon, and which occasionally shone though even after seems almost the opposite of the cursed one. Maybe the curse is magnifying Lysaer's feelings of abandonment, just like it magnified the hatred for Arithon? By turning Lysaer against the support and love he needs to make a stand against the curse and its violence and hatred, it gains more control of Lysaer.
Not that I think Lysaer has been so harshly treated, living like a king for all those years, all those adoring fans fawning over him. A grand cause to fight for. That was what he wanted back at the start. Once freed of the curse, I am wondering if Lysaer might feel a lot differently about kingship and what he really wants.
originally posted by Julie
DarthJazy- you are not the only Lysaer fan. In COTMW he was not the aggressor to start with. True he was pampered, sheltered, etc, but he did not shirk from living rough or trying to pull his own weight. His sense of duty is very strong.
His only true friend was Sulfen Evend- pity he did not have longevity. I did not get the impression he enjoyed the years since SE's death, the rich living notwithstanding.
As for women- the curse twisted the original trauma of abandonment. I am holding out that he finds true friendship and trust with Daliana. The only other person he may be able to turn to is Dakar- not particularly firm footing though.
originally posted by DarthJazy
*Speculates from a dark corner*
originally posted by Annette
A quote from Ships of Merior -
"A woman in his bed could never blunt his ardour to see Rathain’s prince bleed on his sword."
Talith failed, Elaine never had much of a chance, Daliana it seems will be putting more than just a dent in that bloodthirsty ardour. If others will just leave them to it.
originally posted by Julie
If the Curse would leave them to it. Lysaer is battling that bloodthirsty ardor every waking moment. We may get some flashbacks to his life prior to Arithon regaining his freedom; but I somehow doubt he will appear engaged emotionally to anyone knowing through far sight he will be set upon by the mistwraith again. We know that Lysaer attempted to rule Rathain fairly (yes I know its not his to rule)but the clans accepted the arrangement because it kept them relatively safe. We also know from the sneak preview that they are being hunted by the Hatchet so either Lysear gave his tacit approval (hope not), he no longer has the power to prevent it, or there is a larger strategy he is at work on.
originally posted by Annette
Daliana is Lysaer's best chance to fight the curse, would have the opposite effect if Lysaer made Daliana his mistress. Lysaer is more likely to marry her, than keep his hands off her. Lysaer will just be off in Tysan burning temples, and settling things so maybe not in Rathain for a while.
The True Sect took over Etarra, army probably went there after they were tossed out of Havish. Lysaer had been planning on going to Tysan before things went wrong. Dakar and Daliana seemed headed that way, Arithon was heading for Rathain.
Where did Arithon pick up an infant ward in his travels? Rathain? Is Arithon protecting Cosach's heir maybe? Before Asandir could sanction the babe? Rathain's royal line is certainly in dire jeopardy, yet Asandir did not give his sanction to the heir apparent. Was the still unborn child in IT going to be the next Caithdein maybe?
originally posted by Julie
You would think Cosach would know about the kid then and how would Arithon wind up with it? I think this ward and trouble in Rathain are unrelated. Also the blond twins from Ships of Merior while not official wards seemed to function as such and were never considered Arithon's heirs.
What would be the difference to the Curse if Lysaer and Daliana were married or lovers?
originally posted by Annette
I would think Lysaer would be ashamed of himself and hate himself even more, if he were to sully the innocent Daliana by having her as a mistress. He loves her, he would marry her, same as he would not bed Talith before they were married. And he has already flirted with a repeat of what he did to his second wife.
I do not think Lysaer is like Arithon, to be content having a platonic relationship with the woman he loves. She has survived his worst, he has already tried to kill her, leave her to his fanatics, and just plain dump her to go off to war. She has not deserted him or given up her faith in him and has proved her worth. No reason not to marry her if she can get him to settle down somewhere.
The infant is Arithons ward, he has the child with him, the Shaman's seem to be protecting both. So the child would have talent, and be important. The only upcoming birth we know of is Jalienne's, Cosach's wife. The other possibility is a s'Lornmein, to safeguard Havish's royal lineage if Havish fell. But how would anyone get a babe of that lineage to Arithon? Cosach has been trailing Arithon from Rathain, to Melhalla and back to where they are in Havish. A long way from Telamndir, unless Havish has already fallen and the survivors were sheltering in Ettinmere settlement.
Arithon was in Rathain, that seems a more likely location, or even Melhalla, a caithdein's heir from there, or maybe a s'Brydion. But we have heard of no conflict in Melhalla. Arithon is more closely tied to Rathain's clans, and he has already sacrificed a lot to save the s'Valarient lineage once. I am thinking he might be saving them from something else this time.
"Or why haven’t the Seven bestirred themselves to snatch my infant ward from the insular bosom of Ettinmere settlement?’
Why would they? To sanction the child for something? Tysan's next Caithdein is sanctioned, and Arithon has not been to Shand, that leaves 3 kingdoms, Rathain, Melhalla and Havish. All three could be in danger of losing a ruling regent or royal lineage. But only one would need a sanctioned heir if Arithon's life was in danger. Arithon seemed to be goading Cosach with that possibility.
It is strange Asandir never sactioned Cosach's heir Esfand, who is still only heir designate. And Arithon gave that comment when speaking to Cosach about still being last of his line. Cosach is regent of Rathain in the absence of a crowned heir, the babe could never be Arithon's heir, has to be a blood relation to be that.
So what exactly was going on in that conversation? Arithon has spoken to Asandir and refused to be crowned it seems. He dared Cosach to disown him, but there is no one else to take his place.
Or is it that there is at least another royal to uphold the compact, even if an infant one? A s'Lornmein has always been in Havish, even while the other 4 royal lines went through the West gate. The s'Lornmein that stayed behind was born before Dari, who went through the gate last. Why did the s'Lornmein heir not go through west gate? There was no crowned royal while the other royals were banished, but would Asandir not still have sanctioned each s'Lornmein heir? Is the compact broken maybe if there is no Fellowship sanctioned royal on Athera? Cosach wants to drag Arithon off to a conflict that is likely to get him killed, would Asandir have to sanction Arithon's infant ward before Arithon dies? Whether a s'Valarient or a s'Lornmein?
Or it could be something else completely different, Janny is good at hiding things.
originally posted by Dina
Annette, I haven't had a chance to respond, so it will seem like I'm going backwards a little. Apologies in advance.
Externally, Lysaer will seem charming, handsome, dazzling, etc. He's had years to perfect that public persona. It would be ideal to see evil or bad character reflected externally, but that's not the case. All too often, a very rotten core is concealed by the most charming of exteriors. An innocent earl's daughter sheltered all her life from a true interaction with another person, especially a male person, will not have the skills to identify these things. She'll see what she's meant to see: a handsome, charming prince.
One of the major themes Janny is weaving in this series, and I would say the core of the entire concept, is that appearances are deceiving. She's helping us to challenge commonly held beliefs, asking us to question the obvious and delve beneath the surface for truth.
I believe Lysaer as a fractured, abusive man, incapable of showing honest, pure love because of his emotional scars, inhibitions and insecurities is a poignant vehicle for that. Having these be his character flaws as they have been for untold men (and women) is a more honest character and a more valid lesson. I would say that it cheapens the value of the character to pin all his faults on the Curse as a deus ex machina. Sadly, in real life, people do not have this convenient excuse for their behavior.
You say Daliana is Lysaer's best chance, but I say Lysaer himself is his only chance for redemption. He's made a few attempts in the past to fight the curse. I give him credit for that, and I was really happy with what he did during Arithon's absence to rule fairly and evenly in Etarra.
On the other hand…he had 230-odd some years to find a solution to the Curse. Arithon did it in, what - 60, 70 years? Arithon actively looked for a cure and didn't rest until he found it. Lysaer was content to whine about what a victim he was but never really exerted himself to do anything. Yet another foil between the brothers.
If Lysaer wants to heal, he has to address the scars in his past and forgive himself for it, the way Arithon went through Kewar Tunnel (?, I'm a little sketchy on the exact name, but I'm referring to Davien's maze that makes a person relive his life through the lens of conscience). Something tells me that Lysaer would not emerge from that experience with his sanity intact.
That doesn't stop Lysaer from being one of my most favorite characters ever. I have learned much from him, but I am no longer dazzled by his flashy exterior.
originally posted by Julie
Dina:
Arithon was able to defeat the curse because he always knew it was there. His training since age 3 included stringent scanning of his physical, mental, and emotional being. His time with Davien including the maze elevated his powers and knowledge way beyond what he came to Athera with. THIS is what allowed him to take the chance in the King's glade where he was healed by Paravian grace.
But remember- he gave Dakar his own leash because he could not trust himself with the mistwraith still within him.
Lysaer never had an Iota of training, both his father's distrust of magic and Rauven's refusal to train (wonder what the back story is there- keeping the peace?). So he had none of the defenses Arithon had- this is repeated throughout the series. However in the rare times when the curse was totally dormant, Lysaer was able to express the truth - remember at the siege of Alestron? He tells Sulfen Evand that the feud was based on a childish jealousy- he is disgusted with himself. The 230 years that passed when Arithon was in captivity were not spent idle. It took months for the curse to finally take full control of Lysaer after Arithon's freedom. Earlier in the series he would have been beating the war drums much earlier. It will be interesting to see what state he is in when he recovers from Havish.I too find Lysaer the more interesting character, and I do not think he is rotten to the core!
Annette:
The truce between Havish and the true sect was imposed under Fellowship auspices at the end of the last book, so I do not think Havish has fallen. Cosach has sought out Arithon to demand he stand with his people. This too has happened before in the series. It has nothing to do with the infant. Why do you think this child is anything more than an orphan of the Ettenmere?
And as far as Daliana and Lysaer- I am not sure it is really morality which would require a marriage before sex. Although Daliana loves him and is attracted to him, she was using sex as a tool of distraction. He sees her(and rightfully so) as a child- that is the innocence he would sully.
originally posted by Dina
Forgive me, I did not mean to imply that Lysaer is rotten to the core. After all, didn't he swoop down in righteous fury to rescue Daliana from an unfair trial and certain death? (I LOVED that moment!) You're right, as seasoned as she pretends to be, Daliana is still an innocent, and that type of grand gesture makes an impression on her.
I still think that Lysaer can do more. He can make a better effort, try harder. In his position, I would strive to learn the arts that were denied me if they would cause healing. Lysaer passively hides behind that fact like it's an excuse. Oh, I never learned; guess I can't do it. That seems like a cop out to me.
Just another example of how Arithon and Lysaer are products of their upbringing. Arithon actively pursues a solution, seeking to mold his circumstances to his benefit whereas Lysaer works more passively by adapting to the conditions he is dealt.
Which one is correct? Maybe both, maybe neither.
originally posted by Auna
Arithon is self-aware, Lysaer is self-delusional. It's going to be a lot harder for Lysaer to throw off the curse because he uses his gift as a crutch to justify his actions and the curse keeps nudging him to do that. Also, it would mean recognizing that all the wars he's fought and the people he's killed were done under false pretenses, so he shies away from acknowledging that which keeps him under the curse. He can do it, but he'll need loads of help and probably a good shrink once it's all over.
originally posted by Dina
Yes, what Auna said. 
originally posted by Annette
Lysaer's faults were pride and vanity neither that bad he deserved what that Mistwraith has done and will do to him. Lysaer had started to see things clearer before that Mistwraith ruined him. And since he was spell bound never to question his own gift of justice, the Fellowship is partly responsible, never mind that they failed to protect Lysaer when he needed it. He never had a chance of fighting that curse by himself. He is fighting it now only because he had arcane help, friendship and love.
And when Lysaer is free of the curse, he will no longer be blinded to conscience, and will realize he lead humanity down the path to damnation for a false cause. As well as the more personal cost of what he did to a half brother he loved. Morriel was wrong about which brother was the danger, Dakar has already mentioned Lysaer is at risk of madness or being a suicide. Once freed of the curse, Lysaer will judge himself if he remains sane, his prospects are not looking good.
From what the adept said, Lysaer will have to make a choice on something once free of the curse. He did promise to protect the townborn, they are likely to need protecting at that point.
How would Lysaer do at bargaining with a dragon?
originally posted by Julie
I do not think Lysaer is self delusional, he knows that the war was based on a false cause and he is responsible. That he does not seem to suffer from self loathing and guilt as Arithon has is because he does not carry that searing empathy. Lysaer's apparent apathy is more of a coping mechanism- the loss of life in a misguided war requires him to find some way of balancing that with stability for those survivors and their future generations. That is Lysaer's other gift- statemanship
originally posted by Julie
I think Lysaer could probably hold his own with a dragon- he's awful stubborn
originally posted by Annette
I think it is more Lysaer's magnetic personality and way with words that might make him a suitable ambassador to argue a case for the ten fingered pests infesting Paravia. Mere stubbornness with a dragon would only get him crispy fried.
originally posted by Annette
Or if Lysaer still has use of his gift of light once freed of the curse, maybe he could mesmerize Seshkrozchiel with a sparkling light show long enough to talk her out of frying him and his followers.
Or there is the outside chance Lysaer might finally get something he has wanted for a long time, the knowledge to fully understand his gift of Light. Maybe Lysaer was never trained, because Mak s'Ahelas knew what he would become, under the influence of his fathers hatred, Arithon might be the one to pass on the knowledge Lysaer needs, once he is redeemed. What would Seshkrozchiel make of Lysaer then?
The effect Lysaer had on Cerebeld when they conversed over distance was interesting. A bit similar maybe to the effect Alithiel has when aroused? Dakar did muse a few thoughts some where, on where Lysaer draws his gift of light from. The Paravians also seem to have a similar affect on people. The irony, Lysaer did say once of the Paravians ‘What else would blind a man, or lure him from steadfast faith, than a rendition of shining compassion?’
Shining compassion describes a Paravian, but who was the shining light who lead humanity astray? Who lured them from steadfast faith?