originally posted by Trys
"masters of destruction": consider their past before they came to Athera.
originally posted by Neil
well yeah 
but *compared* to a drake? I wonder what drakes could not dream up? Or are they limited to planets? or just won't do the "true dreams" (IIRC)
I think F7 being the "masters" is related to ability of mankind to have a faster living cycle and be able to destroy planets with tools needing little effort? More bang for your buck, albeit contrary to law of major balance at need when drake-bound?
originally posted by Annette
The Fellowship perceived themselves as the masters of destruction. They held themselves responsible for the destruction of their entire civilization. It had been their creation that had been used as a weapon to enact that destruction.
It was that perception of themselves that drew the drakes to them.
I am not sure, but I believe if the Fellowship break the Law of the Major Balance, they lose their power and the Koriani win.
Which is why those witches are so intent on causing mayhem. Their Prime has no morals to start with so nothing to lose, she will break even her orders own rules, in order to get what she wants.
originally posted by Jim
Well Annette, I'm sure you know from your reading that the Fellowship is tasked with upholding the Laws of the Major Balance. But, if humanity (including the Koriani) are to break the "Laws", the Fellowship is also tasked with cleansing/eradicating humans from the face of Athera. So, the Koriani don't win anything. At least that is my interpretation from what I've read.
originally posted by Annette
Charter law, is not the same as the Law of the Major Balance, which is the source of Fellowship power. The Koriani do not obey the LotMB in the first place. No one else has to obey it, it is voluntary, a choice. The Fellowship if they break their own compact and their own power, would not I think be in a position to destroy humanity, and would have no reason to if they could, so the balance of power would go to the Koriani, who would decide humanity's destiny. Not absolutely sure about that, but that is the impression I got by how careful the Fellowship was being to ensure they obeyed the LotMB. If they had been forced to kill Lysaer in order to protect Athera's mysteries, something dire would have happened as a consequence.
If humanity does not threaten the resonance of the planet, the dragons would not destroy them. And if the Fellowship break their own power, the Paravians seem unlikely to return to deny humanity their right to stay.
If the Koriani or the townborn break the compact, the Fellowship would be forced to destroy humanity, assuming they are at that time still bound by what brought them to Athera. If not, the dragons would destroy humanity.
Killing Arithon, would mean the Fellowship would never be restored to 7, but then they have not been 7 for some time. I do not really see how that breaks the compact, but apparently it might. For 500 years there was no crown rule, although there was always a royal(s'Lornmein) on Athera. Not sure if having no royal heirs on Athera would be a problem, it might be. Wiping out the clans would break the compact. If they lose Havish's royal line and Arithon is executed would it break the compact? Lysaer is outcast from the compact, even though he is still royal, he cannot be a Fellowship sanctioned royal heir. There are other royals on Dascen Elur would they not do? Maybe it is something to do with the resonance of Athera dropping, at least one royal heir on Athera is needed. Else why did they not send Havish's heir through West gate? Dari was born after the fall of Telmandir, she was younger than the Havish heir, yet when she was old enough she went through West Gate, why did Havish's heir stay behind?
Janny will get to it eventually.
originally posted by Jim
Hi Annette, thank you for your reply. You pointed out a mistake in my post. I confused the "Law(s)" with "The Compact".
originally posted by Julie
I got the impression from the prequel stories that the Havish royal line stayed secreted on Athera because they were unable to get off the planet when the world gates were still operational. The resonsnce of Athera is not impacted by the royal lines simply because they are royal- their vibrations are part of the fabric like any other being (animal, mineral, tree).
I do not see the relationship between preserving the Compact and the Seven being restored to their titular number except their full might ensure upholding the tenets of the Compact with less stress to themselves.
The prophecy about Arithon accepting kingship leading to the reunion of the 7 presumes a functioning Compact
Here's something to chew on: were the Paravians happy to agree to Ciladis's compact and have humans take over charter law (and responsibility for the kingdoms)?
I recall reading about centaur and sunchildren high kings, but not any unicorns holding the kingship. Yet there are references to the unicorns being the only unsullied link to Ath Creator.
So here's the potential curveball: Does holding a kingship sully the link to Ath Creator somehow? Is that why the unicorns are the only unsullied link left? And is that why humans don't tend to last long in the kingly roles? What might that mean for Arithon and the fulfilment of the Black Rose Prophecy?
originally posted by Auna
Kings had short reigns because they were the appointed ambassadors to deal with Paravians. Standing in the presence of Paravians, even for the most enlightened human, took a toll on their health. It was too much awesomeness for them to handle for long.
originally posted by Annette
Havish's orphaned prince was born before the fall of Telmandir so around 5018, since he was still dependent on milk. Dari was born well after the uprising in 5037. West Gate was not closed before Dari had been trained and was old enough to fend for herself. So why were only four royal lines sent through West gate? There were five royal heirs and they deliberately kept the Havish one on Athera, he could have gone through the gate once he was old enough, same as Dari did later.
For some reason the s'Lornmein line seems to have been kept in hiding rather than sent through West Gate. There seems to be an agreement there we have not been told about yet, there had to be a reason to keep that lineage on Athera.
We have yet to see any sign that Paravia was actually split up into separate kingdoms under Paravian rule. We only ever hear of one Paravian king at any one time, so seems more likely there was only one kingdom. And Paravians would need no charter to keep them in line with Athera's destiny. Unicorns probably preferred their freedom to kingship. Janny would have to tell us if one ever was king (or queen), but it would be a bit hard for a unicorn to carry a sword.
It was the Fellowship's compact, they swore it together, and are responsible for seeing it is kept. Ciladis helped draw up the kingdom charters under Paravian oversight. The compact and charter law are not the same. The Fellowship is responsible for the compact, humanity has to obey charter law, which it seems is slightly different for each kingdom.
It would be contact with the Paravians and Athera's mysteries that shortened the lifespan or reign of the royals. Arithon seems made a bit more durable, but still he will find another way to claim his inheritance.
Davien will bow to the Law of the Major Balance, when Arithon claims what he intended. Which was not kingship of Rathain, so there are two ways Arithon could reunite the Fellowship. He will be chasing the other alternative, one that I believe involves that earthlink Sethvir currently has.
originally posted by Neil
Assume F7 cast strands to decide where to send the royal lines for best outcome. They could only save 4 of them…
Sigh I need to reread alliance of light…thing is I have picked up traitor's knot …I am starting in the wrong book
interesting idea about the kingdom charters being different. Don't think we have seen any details? I seem to recall someone said the "needs of the land differed in each region" apparently? (maybe in appendix of stormed fortress?)
I think the kingdoms existed before mankind arrived but cannot remember any concrete reference to support this. When mankind's destiny is no longer linked with Athera…which seems possible long-term then the royal lines are released…I think Arithon may need to accept kingship to save Rathain in the short-term…but with a view to somehow bring townborn up a level to the point where a majority of humanity on Athera can perceive a little *more* (which might be hard work / tricky…but potential is there in all humans…but how could he do this with free will?)
Kingship is just the communication/arbitration between paravian and humans. And just a tough job…not corrupting per se I feel…just difficult.
[just read the SF appendix] town/clan crosses were less likely to withstand paravian presence. Town born cannot perceive why free wilds are sacrosanct but if paravians were around they would be less likely to trespass?
I note paravians lived in fortresses during second age…so they were vulnerable to attack roaming around
Lose Sethvir and you lose the compact (no earthlink to monitor and give other F7 members a steer.
Lose enough clan and I guess you cannot execute the agreement (the "grass roots" argument from GC)
In GK Moriel upsets a few grimwards? Why not just upset a few more? I suppose she is distracted by Arithon now. And Davien has recently done a proof of concept re: repairing the planet with a drake?
But first we need to deal with Koriani… mistwraith…and necromancers(or do we if they do not threaten the compact sufficiently to prioritise?)…and "the light" (who might be under the control of necromancers? Could another cult have succeeded in Tysan in Lysaer's absence? although I suppose this would have got a mention in IT ;-)…assume the other 2 cults do not include koriani… anyway they all threaten the compact still…
Davien must have a "next move"
And the origins of F7 and Koriai history will surely divide humanity further?
originally posted by Annette
I think Arithon will be dealing with the Koriani Prime last, after he has recovered from all the other problems he had to solve. In his current emotional state I doubt he would go any where near Selidie. Mistwraith, dragonspawn, necromancers, Lysaer and then Koriani I would think. That Beidar knife might give Arithon some much needed protection before he faces Selidie/Morriel.
Janny made a point of drawing our attention to what seems to be a difference with Melhalla's kingdom charter, cannot remember exactly where it started, but it was with the s'Brydion and why they could not swear fealty to Lysaer. They had an alliance, none swore fealty to either brother.
It would make it hard for Arithon to get into the Queens grove in Atwood, even though he has defended Melhalla and saved lives there. Even with a blood tie, that might be royal, he would get no where, since he is sanctioned as Rathains Prince. Shand seems to work a bit differently, kyrialt could swear fealty. I think Arithon is collecting ties to each clan that would enable him to protect them, as a brother, not as a Fellowship agent. But we have never seen any in Melhalla swear guest oath, Arithon's words of regret on his one visit to their Caithdein was he wished he had not crossed her threshold. Nothing about a guest oath. It is written in their kingdom charter, they swear fealty to no Prince from another kingdom or words to that effect.
Maybe all Arithon needs to do is burden Melhalla's Caithdein with enough shame one of their line would be sworn over, or they would give Arithon what he wants. But then if it turns out the current Caithdein are s'Brydion, I think they already managed to set themselves up. They would have been involved with the plot that ended up with Arithon being handed over to the Koriani.
Possibly there would be more than just shame, Jeynsa was under Arithon's protection, if her happiness was ruined, if she never had children, never married again, would restitution be owed for her loss. Sevrand was married to Jeynsa if he killed himself because of the shame of what his family had done, where would restitution there lie? Could Arithon lay claim because he was married to Jeynsa?
And then there is what happened with Eriegal, who had sworn fealty to Arithon, before Barach swore fealty to Rathain. How does that oath play out, could Arithon claim a personal debt for his lost life. And all that trouble the s'Brydion caused with their stance at Alestron. And that Parrien tried to kill Arithon, and still Arithon saved him.
Some of that lot might fall on Rathains clans, there seemed to be more than shame to deal with there, there were a few crown debts as well it seems Dakar could have called due. But I think Arithon would not want to strengthen any crown ties to Rathain. It would be the more personal debt or harm he would use. Remains to be seen if he can turn any to good use in Melhalla.
Someone will be visiting the Queens grove in Atwood, and Arithon seems the most likely, Elaira does not seem to have any chance.
Elaira seems more likely to gain a tie with Havish. Selidie set some bait for her in Havish, so Elaira will probably be returning. Maybe in time for another coronation, perhaps a queens. What would an imprint of that event mean for Elaira? Especially if Havish ends up losing their royal lineage. Or if Arithon steps in and snatches the last one before the babe can be sanctioned. Removing that last s'Lornmein from Fellowship control. Just who has Arithon taken on as ward in the sneak preview?
Last s'Ffallen and last of the Fellowship sanctioned royalty? Maybe Arithon has more than his own freedom in mind?
As the last sanctioned royal, it comes down to the same reason why the s'Lornmein prince was kept on Athera maybe. Kill the last of the Fellowship sanctioned royalty what happens?
Would not the compact require that there was always a sanctioned royal on Athera? They had Arithon and the s'Lornmein lineage. While Arithon was off fighting wraiths they had the s'Lornmein. All through the 500 years of banishment of the other royal lineages, they had the s'Lornmein. If the True Sect or some other lot of fanatics invade Havish and kill the ruling s'Lornmein, and it comes down to one unsanctioned babe kept safe but removed from Fellowship hands and Arithon?
The compact would break when they execute Arithon.
originally posted by David Gardner
I'd be somewhat disappointed if it's Arithon who has to "deal" with the Korani.
I'd like to hope that individuals within the Sisterhood gain a deeper understanding of Athera's mysteries etc, and start by claiming their right to self determination (Lirenda, Elaira, hopefully the remaining parts of Seldie), and effecting change from within. For that matter, the crystals themselves.
originally posted by Annette
Well you know how Arithon always likes to give his adversary's the first hit. And we have already had the hint ages ago how Morriel was going to meet her doom and it involves Arithon, and that Waystone. I should think he will just innocently walk into Selidie's trap, knowing it will be her doom and not his. Especially if she has that knife in her possession and thinks she is safe. Look at how Lysaer's attack on Sulfin Evend went. Look at how the first sect of Necromancers was dealt with. And if all else fails, he could just use his bardic skills to reflect her own attack back at her. But I do not think he would do that, I think he will just let her take the first shot, and suffer the consequences. Arithon will be blameless.
Other than Elaira and maybe Lirenda if she embraced a certain melody, none of the other Koriani initiates have the power to break the hold their Prime has on them. One of thos major focus stones have their imprints, and they swore their vows over a major crystal.
Elaira will be the one to deal with the Koriani, maybe with Lirenda and Selidies help, maybe not. Arithon will be the one to deal with Morriel, who after all is not that different to an insane wraith, or a necromancer.
originally posted by Julie
Don't think Arithon walks innocently into any trap these days. he is the personification of free will choices! The Beider knife is for Elaira to give to Arithon. She may use it herself once. Seldie may know its origins but not how to defang it.
She should fear it because it is designed to cut the bonds of necromancy- which of course spells the end of Morriel and matriarchal succession. Of course if there are any sisters really dedicated to the founding tenets of the order they can direct the sisterhood to once again help assuage suffering. I know a fairy tale ending!!
originally posted by Melanie Trumbull
Re: post from 29 June 2014
Has Elaira met Sethvir face to face?
If she has, it would have been in the five books before Peril's Gate. After all, Sethvir spent the better part of three books prostrate in Althain Tower until Asandir got the assistance of Davien and Seshkrozchiel with the grimwards:
Peril's Gate, Traitor's Knot, and Stormed Fortress
Now, if I weren't so lazy, I would go back to CoTM through GC and look for myself…
originally posted by Judy
No, she hasn't - she's missing Ciladis and Sethvir from her F7 collection. That should change soon, however, since she's heading to Althain Tower at the end of IT.
originally posted by Auna
Can't wait to see that meeting 
originally posted by Annette
Janny was busy over at Keycon on Friday and the weekend, when hunting for photo's of the con, a sketch of Telmandir was spotted.
https://twitter.com/chrishlady/status/599635397103104001
What do we think, might end up on the cover? Still would like Arithon to have the central spot though. Havish would play a pivotal role, in the coming conflict, being the only kingdom still ruled under charter law, and a sanctuary for the clan bloodlines and other talent persecuted by the True Sect, and other misguided townborn. If Lysaer or the followers of his false religion want to unite Paravia as one kingdom, Havish is going to be a problem.
originally posted by DarthJazy
I want to see Lysaer on the cover he hasn't been on one in a while. He will be redeemed by the end of this book so that way he has to help fix what he started in the last arc.