What has Arithon been doing for the past 200-300 years?

originally posted by Andrew Mallett

[Ware! This topic contains potential spoilers for everything up to the third preview for Initiate's Trial]

This is my theory as to what has happened to Arithon for the past century or two. (Though i am sure i will be proved wrong when the book finaly comes out)

Firstly - At the end of SF there were a number of free wraiths from Marak inbound. The fellowship has been relatively powerless to stop them, and since their previous attempt to contain a mere 9 wraiths could have ended with Sethvir's possesion by the wraiths, I think it is clear that the gifts of Lysaer and Arithon are required.
I suggest that Sulfin Evend was somehow involved in forcing Lysaer and Arithon to work together to capture this latest invasion. This would explain him being "the light's most nefarious heretic". (if you can think of something worse than forcing the divine prince of the light to co-operate with the dreaded spinner of darkness on some work of evil magecraft, let me know). Even if this is wrong, then something must have happened to the wraiths - I doubt that the fellowship could hold them at bay for 300 years.

Secondly - When scrying the future for a possible course of action in SoM, Dakar has a vision of Arithon (exact wording forgotten) spending decades, or possibly longer, in darkness and music.
Could this be Arithon spending some, if not all of the time between arc 3 and arc 4 in Rockfell peak, using his masterbard's talent to name each individual wraith and allow them to pass naturally beneath the wheel? This would be serving his gift of compassion (releasing trapped spirits), defanging the light's campaign against him (no visible target to hit), and seving the fellowship interests. It also may involve Traith in some way - as the lost parts of his abilities potentially lie in the possesion of wraiths currently in rockfell.

Any thoughts? (who thinks i am horribly off track, and who thinks my idea is sound, at least in principle?)

originally posted by Laneth Sffarlenn

If nothing else, I like the idea of your idea :smiley:
They each have merit, though our wiley spinner of tales is unlikely to give even the slightest nod towards either direction…let the speculation begin anew!

originally posted by Laneth Sffarlenn

[Possible Stormed Fortress spoilers. Proceed at own risk]

I tried to edit the above, but left it too long, so here's my extra thoughts:

I love the idea that Arithon spends a good deal of time Naming the free wraiths, however I doubt he could remain incarcerated in Rockfell long, before Davien or another meddling facet of Arithon's cursed and hunted life encroaches and draws him out.

He's only ever seemed to stay removed until the last possible moment before something terrible occurs and his gift of compassion seems to draw him out onto the battlefield.

His oath to not kill again is going to be an interesting play on his life-thread if three hundred years is to have passed and Lysaer's religion has gained weight and still casts him as the evildoer he's not.

I'm quite interested in knowing what Lysaer has been doing in the time since his 'reawakening' - it would seem to me (from past grievances) that his emo, self-indulgent and cursed attitude, not to mention his misguided pride, wouldn't let him seek to undo or amend the wrongs wrought by his own hand.
Moreover he admitted that he's at the front of a train that's driving itself now - he couldn't stop it if he wanted to.
So, what does he do? He's obviously "Lord" Lysaer now, no longer Prince or the "Light's Divine blahblahblah" (maybe) so it'd be interesting to see how he's living his life and how he's interacting with the religion of Light and the people that are still on the warpath.

I covertly want him to secretly meet with Arithon to discuss their options - he's aware he's cursed, and also aware that he cannot stop the religion now. Perhaps he works with Arithon to curtail the Light's more dire atrocities…but then, that'll probably not happen.

(Message edited by admin on December 22, 2008)

originally posted by Kirsten Laurelle Wallace

['Ware Stormed Fortress Spoilers]

I also really like the idea of your idea. I think another thing to wonder about it Arithon's daughter. Three hundred years is a long time and she doesn't have longevity. How many descendants does he have now? Does he figure it out? Seems pretty unbelievable for him to not discover the truth at some point in time. Also, what would his reaction be? Could he possibly decide not to work with the fellowship now? Would he?

I'm really curious, but not going to make a guess. Janny always proves me wrong… which I love, because I hate it when I already know what's going to happen. What's the point in reading it if you already know the story?

(Message edited by admin on December 22, 2008)

originally posted by Kirsten Laurelle Wallace

I guess I should have put a spoiler notice in my last post. I'm really bad at remembering that. Sorry. :frowning_face:

originally posted by Trys

It's ok. I fixed it. :smiley:

originally posted by Julie

I like the idea of Arithon dealing with the free wraiths- they have been hovering in the bnackground throughout the entire series.Finishing the job and emerging into the world again would explain the need for Asandir to instal a new caithdien to Lysaer. Lysaer is struggling to control the curse and I agree that there will have to be some cooperation between the two, most likely through SE. I am still hoping that after Sulfin Evend marries and has kids he accepts a Fellowship apprenticeship!!

originally posted by Laneth Sffarlenn

Thanks Trys - I forgot totally about the Spoiler warning, since I rarely post on here.

[Warning - possible more Stormed Fortress & other spoilers ahead]

Kirsten, 300 years would be rather long indeed for someone of Arithon's unique ability to nut things out with astounding clarity.

Julie - I love the idea of SE taking an apprenticeship. I would love to see him serve with either Sethvir or Traithe, (even though Traithe's access to the Mysteries and his Power is crippled, surely he has awareness and knowledge enough to tutor an apprentice?)

Ooh - another thing I remembered!
I had an argument with my best mate a few years back over Ciladis. He was, apparently, my mate's favourite of the F7.
I asked how that could be when we knew so little of him, and all we do know is his compassion and his works left behind - we don't know his personality at all.

This leads me to wonder, when Ciladis comes back from his exile and forced slumber, what change will have been wrought, and what will his personality do to the F7 and the flow of the story?
Perhaps, surely, in 300 years, the paravians may have a chance to return? Esp. since Arithon has now encountered all three paravians in the flesh, upon Atheran soil - proving they are still around?

originally posted by Brittani

Warning Possible Spoilers Ahead!

I like the idea of Arithon dealing with the wraiths kept in Rockfell, but I am wondering exactly how he manages to let one wraith at a time out of the container so he can use his masterbard skills to figure out its true name? If he lets them all out at once I would think he would end up like Traithe, or posessed or killed or worse…

Didn't the nomadic sand tribes stake a claim on Arithon's daughter? I am thinking she still has some big part to play.

Laneth- Did Arithon encounter the Paravians in Flesh or Spirit/vision/thingy?

originally posted by Laneth Sffarlenn

[Warning - definite Spoilers from several novels!]


When Arithon was in Kewar Tunnel, his spirit's plight summoned a Centaur (sorry, I'm hopeless with the Paravian names and would stuff them um) in the flesh to walk beside him.
Both Sethvir and Davien felt it - Sethvir through his earthsense and Davien through reviewing Arithon's progress and realising that two physical entities were in Kewar at the one time, impossibly.

When Arithon entered the King's Grove in … Shand? … The Sunchildren came to dance and clean his spirit - they came to him in the flesh, for the mysteries of the King's Groves allowed them passage into Athera and the protection to not be noticed by many.

And the Unicorn - that I cannot remember whether it has happened, or was forseen to happen, but either way he encounters one in the flesh there too. Perhaps I'm thinking of him being skewered, in which case it's not happened with them yet.

I know the other two have, but the Riathan paravians might be the spanner in my theory…

originally posted by Craftsman

[Ware Stormed Fortress Spoilers]

(I am Andrew, the original poster, just couldnt get my username to display before)

Brittani - I don't know how he is meant to free single wraiths, but the fellowship sorcerers have obviously planned on him using bardic talent to determine their names, so perhaps they have a plan.
I agree that he couldn't face them all at once - it took him and Lysaer and several fellowship sorcerers to bind them.

Regarding Arithon's daughter, Sundancer has some intriguing ideas, but I will let her voice them herself.

Laneth - As far as i recall, Arithon has never been visited by an in the flesh unicorn, however Elaira has, when she was with the Ath's adepts.
However, I don't think that the paravians will have returned - I think that, at very least, the mistwraith issue must be fully solved, possibly including the curse which Lysaer suffers. Also, returned paravians would probably remove the impetus of the Religion of the Light, as no phony prince could hope to compare to the beauty and awe inspired by the paravians. If nothing else, the very title of the arc tells us that the Religion of the Light is still going strong.

Lastly, Merry Christmas to all!
*wonders if Athera has a similar festival, perhaps Ath Creator's Birthday! :smiley:*

originally posted by Craftsman

[Ware! Spoilers and Arc 4 Speculation]

My apologies everyone ’ Dakar does his scrying in FP (not SoM), and the quote reads thus:
‘Darkness rolled over him, unrelenting and bleak, stabbed through by the rippling, clean harmony of a lyranthe given voice by the hands of a master. Notes plucked out in Arithon’s best style fell like sprays of dropped jewels, or sleet tapping brass, while decades slipped by in a drawn-out, mindless slow agony’’

This could be him freeing the wraiths - something I feel he has to do at some point, and would probably take a while, thus, this 300 year gap is an opportune time.

However, I feel I should point out that in this same scrying he "read death for Rathain's Prince" at the hands of a unicorn, and he returns from the scrying out of balance and saying that he was unable to sound a clear path for the future - Arithon was too strongly fated. With Janny, anything can happen.

originally posted by Sundancer

Wow! what a discussion! where to start -
Spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler for lots of books and especially Stormed Fortress and the snippets from Initiate's Trial.

Craftsman has been at me to put up my thoughts and I keep saying after the Christmas invasion when I have time. I hope you all had a wonderful time at Christmas and that 2009 brings you great things.

I'm going to have to do this in stages. I'm still reeling with not-yet-enough sleep and pulling random thoughts together, and I just lost my whole post.

Perhaps to start with the invasion of free wraiths and Sulfin Evend - I can't see anyone (even a Fellowship sorcerer) forcing Lysaer to go anywhere near Arithon, surely the curse would break out and he would destroy everything around him? Think of what happened in Stormed Fortress. Even if he was tricked into thinking Arithon was in the wraiths so he attacked them, he would not do it in any sane way and is unlikely to be effective. It would be a cruel thing to do to him, to make the curse even stronger in him.

I do like the idea of Sulfin Evend apprenticing to the Fellowship, and that being the reason he was the Light's 'most nefarious heretic' - what could be more nefarious in that religion's eyes (except saying that Arithon is not evil). However he would still have a role as caithdein, wouldn't he? and we wouldn't need Daliana. Remember Janny told us Initiate's Trial is intended to be read as a standalone so it makes sense that a lot of our old friends are just no longer around (as might be the case if we are 3-400 years into the future).

I love Craftsman's idea of Arithon spending the time releasing the wraiths in Rockfell and healing Traithe in the process (imagine seeing Traithe back in yellow!), not only because of that quote in Fugitive Prince and because it suits Arithon's call to compassion, music and magic but also because it keeps him away from Lysaer and headhunters and safe (if you ignore the ravening wraiths). And it matches the vision of his future when he is in Kewar's Maze - remember the multitude of ragged people who press on him and demand from him when he has to face his future - they could be the embodiment of the souls trapped as wraiths. BUT Arithon doesn't take the simple straightforward path ever - can you see him choosing such a tedious way of releasing them? And why 'in agony' and darkness - why couldn't he ever take a break or go out and see some sunshine in decades?

What if instead somehow he is captive of the Koriani, and bound to them in some way to play for them for healing or whatever? I know he is powerful and tricky, but he would be prepared to let the whole world burn rather than see Elaira come to harm - Morriel/Selidie promised Elaira that she would never be forced to betray him, but that doesn't mean they won't both be trapped somehow - Morriel/Selidie says to Lirenda in Peril's Gate when she makes her promise to Elaira 'when the last crisis breaks, Elaira will dance to the very same constraints that I'll use to break and scatter the power of the Fellowship', and at the end of Stormed Fortress Arithon and Elaira were heading off towards the lion's den.

Capturing Arithon might be part of the 'bitter defeat' in the snippet - Morriel/Selidie wants two things - a successor to Prime Matriarch and the breaking of the compact so they can return humanity to it's proper place in the universe (in their eye) to 'modern' technology and starflight. Arithon is a great gamepiece to capture to force the hand of the Fellowship - but then why wait two hundred years to call in the payment by the Fellowship? I'm missing something here - any ideas?

The other thought about the 'bitter defeat' relates to Arithon's daughter. I have two points here:
1. I don't think she's had children, and
2. I think she's still alive and possibly Koriani

1. If she's had children Arithon must become aware he'd fathered a child, he's got to come across a s'Falenn or two, or hear of them. But Sethvir gives his oath to the Biedar 'the father must never hear of the birth, or acknowledge the daughter delivered…' It might be a long bow to say that hearing of grandchildren means he hears of the birth - but think of the betrayal he would feel - and read below

2. She has to still be alive. Her conception and birth is much too portentous to not be an important part of the next arc. She is the Biedar's hope's promise - 'the time and the hour had been [the crone's] kept charge, since her affirmation as keeper of Mother Dark's Chosen'. The Biedar promise that the child will spare her father one day. The future is bitter-sweet for Sethvir from her birth (too many options to speculate here). This is a big event, we can't see it all in the past in this new book. Soooo, 3-400 years down the track, is she the initiate of the title? Initiate master/spellbinder under the Fellowship seems unlikely, even if she gets training like Dari s'Ahelas - too likely she and Arithon would meet and recognise one another. And the Biedar have claimed her (giving her free will). We are not really clear as to their purpose, but there's lots of hints, and one purpose is clear - they're the sworn enemies of the Koriani, and want to claim back the knowledge the Koriani stole. They wouldn't encompass destruction of the Koriani the way we imagine, but I can see that they could end the Koriani's malign behaviour with a mole in the sisterhood, one with that deep compassion and lots of magic (becoming Prime Matriarch or freeing the crystals). Koriani life enhancement would mean she's still alive. Could her 'sparing' her father be part of this capture/release of Arithon, or be related to the 'bitter defeat' and the agreement between the Fellowship and the Koriani?

Finally, Ciladis, just 'cause he's come up in the thread
Janny says (in the FAQ's) that Ciladis - changed (his colours changed to lilac and gold, so his nature has changed) - before I think he would have worn violet - now we add in extra ?emotion/expression. I think I'd always assumed that the Paravians placed him under the sleep spell, but that doesn't strike me as very Paravian behaviour. Why couldn't he have chosen the sleep spells himself and set the wards, why couldn't the unicorn's puzzlement (in Curse of the Mistwraith) be because Ciladis' wards didn't fall when sunlight came back? What would make him change in nature in a fundamental way? Perhaps he knows/understands something that he can't share with the Fellowship, and so has chosen to remain away until they are ready to learn it?

All a bit unfocused but it's plenty long enough and I'm about to fall into bed - hope it stimulates more debate

originally posted by Mark Stephen Kominski

Erm, we will instead promise not to debate your falling into bed, SunnyD! :wink:

I agree about Ciladis knowing something he can't share, but the "can't" always seemed (to me when I reread that passage) to have been imposed on him, rather than self-chosen.

And I hope all had a Merry Christmas, with best wishes for 2009.

originally posted by Trys

Two thoughts on Ciladis having the situation "imposed" on him. One, I can't imagine that anything could impose their will on a Fellowship Sorcerer and two, I can't imagine that a Paravian would try.


Even in Davien's situation, Seshkrozchiel does not appear to have forced her will on him but rather an arrangement was arrived at. :smiley:

originally posted by Mark Stephen Kominski

Ah, sorry Trys, but I only meant "wouldn't have been his preference", as opposed to "he resisted and was subjugated against his choice". I conjecture that he got into a situation where this (whatever "this" is, beyond sleep guarded by unicorn) was the chosen outcome. I don't think we know enough to determine whether something else imposed its will on him (incredible as that may sound) or not…

Hope you had a good Christmas/Holiday, best wishes for 2009, and thanks again for making this site possible.

originally posted by Trys


Ahhh, I would tend to agree that Ciladis discovered/encountered something or some situation where he, perhaps after consultation with the Paravian, chose to be placed under sleep spells. I believe it was discussed elsewhere on the board that there would have to be something extraordinary about those spelss for his location to have remained secreted from Sethvir's earthsense… so the spells may well be Paravian in nature.

I'm having a good holiday hiatus. My company closes down for the week between Christmas and New Year's which makes for a nice break. Hope yours was nice as well.

You are very welcome for the site. It is a labor of love. :smiley:

Trys aka Jeff Watson

originally posted by Mark Stephen Kominski

Yep. I've been waiting for more on that, even another beginning-of-chapter sub-plot check within one of the books, but nothing yet…

Unfortunately, my company is in healthcare, and people just refuse to stop getting sick for a week to let us do the same (do have Monday off, though!)… :wink:


originally posted by Craftsman

[Ware! Stormed Fortress and Initiate's Trial preview Spoilers]

Trys, the spells don't need to be Paravian in nature, since the whole island that they are on must be shielded from Sethvir already. Fellowship spells within a Paravian cordon would still be undetectable. However, I agree that Ciladis may have set the spells on himself, or at least chosen to remain there of his own free will - in fact, I would assume that any Paravian magic would follow the law of the major balance, and therefore Ciladis would have had to have given consent.
As to why he is staying there, surely if all that was wrong was that he had found the Paravians, then they would have given their reasons for leaving, and allowed him to return, perhaps with his memory of the location removed. The fellowship are critically understaffed, and they hold the task of safe-guarding the free wilds. The Paravians would have no wish to see the free wilds damaged, and so surely if Ciladis could be returned, he would have done so.
It would fit, then, that the unicorn was puzzled by the fact that the sleep spell had not lifted, and perhaps could even account for Dakar's vision of Arithon getting attacked by a Unicorn. Could Arithon in this vision have landed on the island where Ciladis is sleeping, and the Paravian is attempting to drive him away from Ciladis? (this does not explain why Alithiel has lit up, but I cannot think of any reason why fighting a Paravian would be a just cause - perhaps, in Arithon's mind, freeing Ciladis is just. However, that sounds like a weak theory even to me)

Also, I would like to clarify - When I said Sulfin Evend could force Lysaer to help Arithon capture the wraiths, I meant something more along the lines of defanging the curse temporarily, or doing something like what Jiret has done for Arithon in the past (mitigate the effect, and be there to shake him out of it, ect)

I also particularly like the idea of Arithon's daughter becoming prime matriarch - with the gift of compassion, surely she would be against the enslavement of the crystals, and might turn the Koriathain into the proper, mercy based organization that it is supposed to be. The Biedar want the Koriathain 'destroyed', and what would this be but a destruction of all that is bad about the Koriathain. The end result might look more like Ath's Adepts, with all the quartz crystals being free, and sisters asking for permission before casting spells, ect.

Finaly, Sundancer, while I can see that Arithon could be in the captivity of the Koriathain, and playing for healing or some such, I think that Rockfell Peak fits the vision in a much better fashion. (I also like the reference to Kewar - never thought of it that way before)

Cheers, Merry Christmas, and Happy New Year to All!
Happy Debating!

originally posted by Trys

Craftsman, you are right. The specific 'sleep' spells don't have to be Paravian in nature, but somewhere, somehow there has to be magic in effect that is above the ability of the earthsense and that was originally ceded to Sethvir from the Paravians. Therefore, it is highly likely there is Paravian magic involved somewhere in the 'hiding' of Ciladis. The theory that it is on the island rings more true for me because if Sethvir detected a blank spot on a island… but then again perhaps I'm imposing my prejudiced worldview on to Janny's world (which I freely admit I've done so many times before) and it will turn out to be none of these. <big_grin>