originally posted by Matt Roper
I think you're right, Annette, that the truth is skewed through Morriel's twisted perception. The language used clearly shows her opinion of what they did. But I think the factual element of it is accurate. She may be manipulative and ambitious, and she definitely twists peoples' motivations for the things they do, but she is usually quite observant and doesn't just make up events, or misattribute them to other parties.
Remember that the statement was in her own thoughts, not something spoken, so not a direct attempt at manipulation. And while I've no doubt of her abilities for self delusion, to get the factual part so blatantly incorrect, especially if it was herself who caused the wraiths to break through the star wards, seems unlikely. Her madness doesn't seem *that* far gone, or perhaps, not of that variety.
Morriel says "The last invasive free wraith from Marak has been duly banished by Athera's Masterbard. The event occurred yesterday. This dawn, by the covenant carved onto stone in the King's Chamber at Althain Tower, the stay of execution your Fellowship demanded on behalf of Prince Arithon of Rathain is named forfeit."
On what grounds would Morriel have otherwise delayed Arithon's execution, except to save her own skin from invading wraiths? The F7 *had* to let them in, else Arithon would have been killed, the Fellowship would never have been restored, and the compact broken. The only other option would have been to destroy mankind themselves to ensure the compact. Morriel is correct that they had gambled, but it turned out to be a worthwhile risk.
The oath of non-interference was part of the original deal to spare Arithon - now simply confirmed by Asandir. I believe Teylia's role as hostage was to guarantee the F7 wouldn't go against that oath and attempt to retrieve Arithon, as if their word wasn't enough. But I'm not entirely sure about this. Regardless, the fact that the Koriani's distrust caused them ultimately to lose Arithon amuses me greatly.
Good questions about the nature of the Koriani before Athera. It does seem like they had a significant hand in the politics surrounding the war. I knew their intervention on Scathac wasn't purely for the sake of the Biedar, but I had been willing to assume they wanted the Biedar's knowledge so they could save other planets/people as well. But now I'm not so sure.
And it's VERY interesting that Morriel's not aware of the F7's true origins. I can't think of any conceivable way she might find out, but I'd love to see it. Maybe the truth is hidden in the Waystone? If she is clearing the trapped spirits from the stone, maybe one will somehow spill the beans.
Is it possible the weapon still exists, and that the F7 brought it with them on their ship? The Paravians probably wouldn't have approved of that, I suppose.
originally posted by Matt Roper
The F7's ultimate task is to ensure Paravian survival. That is why they were brought to Athera, not for humanity's benefit. So to that end, risking mankind is perfectly reasonable and well within their purview, albeit something they hope to avoid if possible. They're not rewriting their moral code. Remember, they made Arithon swear oath to survive *at all costs,* which very much includes costs to human life. How many people have died already to ensure Arithon's survival? He is the key to everything. He *must* live, at least until he fulfils his purpose.
originally posted by Gary
If forced by their binding directive, that is true. But I'm don't think that Arithon's survival directly triggers that. Arithon and the restoration of the F7 are certainly needed for full restoration of the system of government and rule (part of the Compact), but the Compact is not critical to Paravian survival. If the binding had taken hold, they would have gone in, guns blazing, each time Arithon's life was at risk, and so far in the series, they haven't. At Etarra, at Athir, free will was respected.
Arithon's binding to life was done because of the wraiths, after Kharadmon returned with his news about the two worlds beyond South Gate. The Fellowship did not want the same thing (whole worlds bound in possession and slavery) to happen to Athera.
Actually, the whole situation can be explained if Asandir's blinding trail had failed, and we know it was only expected to last for a few years. That's possibly quite enough to allow a large invasion to reach the star wards. There would be no point in the Fellowship trying to explain that it was a coincidence, Selidie seems quite wilfully blind on matters relating to them, and would not believe them.
originally posted by Matt Roper
Yeah that's definitely possible, that the wards decayed naturally.
My impression was that the F7 were brought to Athera as a group, because that group specifically met the dragons' requirements to save the Paravians. And if that group is broken (as will probably eventually happen if they aren't restored) it will no longer meet those requirements. That's why I thought Arithon's survival was linked to that of the Paravians. But perhaps I'm reading too much into it and making extrapolations that aren't there. Yours does seem a very logical explanation!
originally posted by Sleo
Nice discussion! All of the F7 have always said that they would have to destroy mankind if the awful event happened that the compact was in danger of being broken. I have never understood Morriel's constant efforts to break it unless she doesn't know that. And if she doesn't know, why don't they tell her? Or she at least didn't seem to understand it the night she caused the great upset in the flux when she transferred herself into Selidie's body. She does seem to understand the damage that can be caused by grimwards, as I remember her satisfaction with the fact that the F7 would be too busy trying to keep their wards from failing to interfere with her designs.
originally posted by Gary
Matt, there do seem to be hints about something special with the F7 gathered as a whole, but not sure what yet.
A lot of my speculation comes from seeing what events have or have not triggered the drakes' directive in the past, so I don't see Arithon as critical to Paravian survival (or at least that seems to be the current perception of the Fellowship). Saying that, I still wonder why Elaira potentially having a baby of royal descent (in Traitor's Knot) was so serious as to engage that binding. Probably a different discussion to be had there 
Sleo, I assume there are going to be some reveals in the next two books I have no answers to your questions; also, when the Fellowship was tied down with rescuing grimwards left, right, and centre, why couldn't Selidie ignore the Compact, and do as she pleased? Why is it so important to her that the Compact be broken rather than ignored? I wonder if it is related to the reason why the Koriathain never went through South Gate (as described in the FAQ, they like the high resonance of Athera, so perhaps Selidie wants it all - control of the planet and its resources, and interstellar travel).
originally posted by Annette
quote:She had no sentimental attachment to Athera; on the contrary, the viability of any one planet became an expendable resource. Break the compact and the covenant of Paravian preservation, and mankind could reclaim its interdicted knowledge and remanifest the technologies of star travel.
- Grand Conspiracy
Not that you could expect a madwoman to think logically, but if Morriel was willing to destroy the planet she was living on, I doubt she would worry about the Fellowship having to wipeout humanity. She seems to think she would be able to remanifest a spaceship and leave.
originally posted by Auna
I always believed the truth about the wraiths was more that the wards were decaying, Athera was indeed in grave peril and the F7 told Morriel that Arithon was required to fix the problem or else everyone would die. Of course she would believe the F7 threatened to release wraiths on the world on purpose to thwart her desire to kill Arithon because that's how she thinks.
I don't think anyone knows about the destroy all humanity consequence of breaking the compact and it's not something the F7 would tell anyone because that would probably go against the Law of Major Balance.
originally posted by max
OK what happened here? what did I miss?? I realized that IT wasout and I had to get it but found it on my shelf and it had to have been there at least a year. I understand how Dakar would have been seen as a betrayer but I relly don't understand what Eiragal did. I read this book twice and then read the book before but then rearead the whole series and that last 250 years has me stumped. [smilin at ya]
originally posted by Annette
You had IT on your shelf for a year and forgot to read it?
Eriegal was the one who arranged for Arithon to be captured. Since he had sworn fealty to Arithon, that betrayal ended up getting him executed for treason and brought shame on the clan.
I really doubt Eriegal knew the Koriani were going to end up with Arithon though. I suspect it was more to do with what happened at Alestron and the s'Brydion losing their ancestral home that Eriegal thought Arithon owed restitution for, as well as a bit of misguided revenge. I thought Eriegal might have handed Arithon over to the s'Brydion, and Seledie controlled things from then on. Bransian might have blamed Arithon for what happened and thought Arithon could have intervened to get Alestron back, with a bit of persuasion.
And they would have all turned up for Jeynsa and Sevrand's wedding.
quote:‘Eriegal has never found trust in his Grace. That’s why he was not sent to Vastmark, by Caolle. No Companion among us has not hated, for loss. But some nurse the wound like a canker.’
pg 297 Stormed Fortress
quote:Because, tangled by a misguided revenge, Arithon understood the motive behind his betrayal.’ Here, Dakar quoted the prince verbatim from history. ‘Grief suffered in childhood broke the man’s spirit. If Eriegal dies, if he’s cast out, he might never outgrow his child’s rage for the family reft from him. Alive to accept the result of his choice, he might heal the wound of his losses. As I have, one day he might find his forgiveness for the human short-falls which led the clans to stand their doomed ground for my sake at Tal Quorin.’
Initiate's Trial
Eriegal died, although he was not cast out. Lysaer was cast out and the above would also describe his situation. So presumably one purpose of all this is to save Lysaer, who we can be certain will survive to be freed of the curse and accept the horrific result of his actions, how he is redeemed and healed is yet to be told, but I would think it involves Arithon and Daliana.
Janny will give us the answers in the next book to both the past plot and most of the others still being spun.
originally posted by Sleo
Eriegal had been breeding his hatred since Tal Quorin. I don't think it had anything to do with Alestron.
originally posted by Julie
I agree with Sleo- although Eriegal may have viewed Arithon's refusal to stand with Alestron in the same vein he views Tal Quorin.
Annette- why would Bransian have attended Jeynsa's wedding?
originally posted by Sleo
I'm not Annette, but I imagine Bransian would be there because Jeynsa was marrying his brother.
originally posted by Annette
Jeynsa was marrying Bransian's cousin, his mother's sister's son Sevrand, who had previously been Bransian's heir. The broad shouldered, tawny haired young giant(born 5648) Jeynsa was always sparring with. Bransian's surviving brothers were Parrien and Mearn. I would think an invested Caithdein marrying someone of another named heritage, from another realm would be an event, and Sevrand would not have come without any family.
Eriegal had no reason to hate Arithon, he had trouble trusting him, but still he chose to swear fealty, and after that Jeynsa stormed off and ended up at Alestron. That had to have had some affect on Eriegal's state of mind, both her accusations and that Jeynsa could have been killed. Eriegal would have worried about her and as hinted, he might have blamed Arithon.
Eriegal was willing to back Jeynsa in her bid against Arithon, why not back some one else with a grudge against Arithon? Eriegal might have been sympathetic to the s'Brydion. There is no way Eriegal would have ever handed Arithon over to the Koriani, so who did he think he was handing him over to?
Bransian already proved how low he would go to get what he wanted, and under Morriel's influence he already tried to kill Arithon once, he would be prime suspect.
quote:‘No get of mine would embrace such dishonour!’ Bransian’s glare showed blazing contempt. 'Shame on your words, Sorcerer! Such as Sevrand’s become, he would run himself through, first.
Stormed Fortress pg 61
What was Jeynsa doing while Arithon was being betrayed and spirited away almost under her very roof? Were the young lovers maybe spending a bit of time together the night before the wedding? Cut off from outside distractions maybe? If it was the s'Brydion responsible, I doubt Sevrand would be in on it. Sevrand realised how he had been used and what his family had been responsible for, he might not have been willing to survive the dishonour. Jeynsa might have been a widow real quick. The warning Jeynsa was given about what her betrayal would cost her, might not have been avoided by Arithon saving her life. Among other things she lost, maybe Jeynsa lost the love of her life?
originally posted by Sleo
Eriegal was one of the companions, one of the kids who were survivors of Tal Quorin. He hated Arithon for the loss of his family and most of his clan.
I forgot Sevrand was a cousin, not a brother of Bransian.
I guess we'll have to wait until the next book to find all the motives.
originally posted by Annette
Why would Eriegal hate Arithon? You think he was maybe evil or suicidal? He swore an oath of fealty, especially the clans take such things very seriously. Eriegal warned Jeynsa about the dangers of her questions. Where in any of the books did it say he hated Arithon? Distrust needs a fair bit of influence to flower into hate. Even if Eriegal mistook Arithon's handling of Jeynsa in the worst possible way, would he hate Arithon? Arithon as usual stayed away from his feal following in the time between the end of Stormed Fortress and when he was captured, so there would be nothing at play other than what we have seen.
It is Arithon's fate to empathise with everyone, he understood the weakness that lead to his betrayal, and forgave Eriegal. As usual Arithon accepted responsibility for a horrific massacre against the clans, even though it was Lysaer and the townsmen invading where they should not have been. Arithon understood all their motives as well, so would have also forgiven all of them and accepted responsibility for what happened. But would Eriegal have hated Arithon for what happened at Tal Quarin? It never as far as I know said that in any of the books. Arithon understood the weakness that allowed Eriegal's betrayal and forgave it, but the "tangled by a misguided revenge" part would seem to indicate what happened might not have been what Eriegal intended. We have yet to see how it all played out.
I gave one explanation for why Eiregal might have mistakenly thought Arithon should be handed over to the s'Brydion, even though it was still crown treason, they were clan, Eriegal might have thought they would not harm Arithon, although we know differently. Eriegal might have felt Arithon should have and could still do more to help them.
Another option is that Selidie as usual exploited a weakness to get what she wanted. Whether it was Eriegal's, Bransian's or someone else's we already know she was involved and ended up with Arithon. No one born to a clan heritage would have ever of their own free will and unimpeded judgement have handed Arithon over to the Koriani.
Look at how Morriel/Selidie and even Lirenda gain access to their victims. Talvish could not be suborned, it is explained why. Elaira helped Parrien heal his unresolved issues, and he also could no longer be used by the Koriani. It was also mentioned, that for Lysaer to be taken by the mistwraith, there had to be an opening, Lysaer later admitted himself what that unresolved conflict was. Arithon went through Kewar to resolve all his issues, although obviously that only works for a time, he would have others now wearing his bleeding heart on his sleeve like he does.
When Lysaer is freed of the curse, you think he is still going to hate Arithon, that he would have wanted to kill him? Maybe Eriegal was in fact all too willing to die for his actions, since he would never have wanted to do such a horrific thing to Arithon, and brought such shame on them all. Janny is no doubt going to return to those events in the next book, although depending on who's perspective is used we still might not see everything. I would sort of expect to get a lot of things from Jeynsa's perspective. Fate spared Jeynsa from having to execute her friend. Braggen was not so lucky. 
originally posted by Sleo
Annette, if you recall, some of the clan blamed Arithon for the attack on Tal Quorin back in book 1, Curse of the Mistwraith. Eriegal never got over it. There are mentions of it throughout the books. Most of them don't name him specifically, but he was the one. It had nothing to do with Jeynsa or the later stuff, except that all of it added to his burning hatred. He was just a kid when it happened and he wasn't able to get over it.
originally posted by Sleo
But let's ask Janny. It's her story, I'm sure she knows the answer. But I thought it was fairly clear in Initiate's Trial.
originally posted by Gary
Wasn't there also Deith, who patrolled Strakewood alone after Tal Quorin? I thought he was the person with the most unresolved issues around that battle; but we never really encountered him in the story because of his solo vigil.
Eriegal I saw as distrustful, he never understood Arithon. It was a shame he was asleep when the discussion about Arithon going to fight necromancy happened; a lot of things could have gone differently. His support of Jeynsa could be seen as bordering on betrayal, but then it could also be seen as his duty to support a caithdein against suspected dark practice by a prince. Going from there to handing Arithon over to Koriathain… doesn't make sense to me.
I like Annette's version of events, but we really need to find out more (next book next book next book).
originally posted by Annette
But Skeo, Janny already answered it in Stormed Fortress. Eriegal swore fealty, he would not have done that if he hated Arithon. In his conversation with Jeynsa, her Sight would have detected any threat, all it told her was that Eriegal still did not fully trust Arithon, she assumed he had lost that trust, but actually he never had it to lose in the first place. Eriegal never did or said anything out of line, it was Jeynsa's questions that were bordering on Crown Treason, and Eriegal did point that out.
Even Sidir that paragon of insight, said Eriegal had never found trust in Arithon. So amongst that clan and all its talents, if Eiregal had been Arithon's enemy, it would have been known. Perhaps that is why Deith stayed on in Deshir, but we are not likely to ever know how he felt about Arithon.
Certainly they had intended to keep Jeynsa away from Arithon till he could be given a proper welcome. And even people in other kingdoms knew about the problem with Jeynsa, Arithon had already been warned, which is why he came prepared. Does not seem likely Eriegal would be able to keep any burning hatred of Arithon a secret. if anything happened to change that it happened after Jeynsa left on her little jaunt over to Melhalla.
And Eriegal would not have been thinking Arithon was some necromancer, he would have stayed for the explanation.