originally posted by Sleo
LOL. While I understand your frustration I feel obligated to point out that the F7 have held Athera together and maintained the compact so far. And I doubt the 'necromancers' will be able to pull off their wild schemes. Also I happen to know Janny's hot at work on Destiny's Conflict.
I agree with you about Elaira!
Luhaine is hibernating with the dragon to leave Davien free, and because he can survive all the years that hibernation might last since he's discorporate. Also, Ciladis is asleep with a unicorn watching over him somewhere and none of us know why… did the Paravians take him captive? Hmmm.
And poor Arithon! I do hope he is able to remember everything soon.
originally posted by Annette
Possible spoilers…
You keep an oath no matter who it is to, otherwise you are as bad as the other party. Asandir was not the one who chose to be obligated to Selidie, someone else made that decision for the Fellowship, he was just clearing the debt.
Lysaer swore guest oath to Maenalle s'Gannley, he later broke that oath and had her executed. He considered her a criminal so broke his oath.
quote:"To this house, its lady, and her sworn companions, I pledge friendship. Ath's blessing upon family and kin, strength to your
heirs, and honour to the name of s'Gannley.
Beneath this roof and before Ath, I share fortune and sorrow as your brother, my service as steadfast as blood kin."
Lysaer is not only a liar, he is an oathbreaker, they take oaths on Athera very seriously. If a fellowship sorcerer was to break an oath, or not honour one given on their behalf by someone empowered to do so (Dakar), Selidie would have them and the compact would be broken. This is what Selidie is hoping, that to save Arithon they will break their oath.
And although the Fellowship might not be able to solve all Athera's problems, they kept that compact and protected what they could. If Sethvir had been in a coma there would be no Athera, since he was busy keeping all those grimwards stable. And Asandir was busy repairing them.
Not sure what the inference about Arithon's bloodline was, but Dakar gave us the insight the Sorcerer's were trying to avoid having to kill Lysaer in order to save Havish. The hint they were going to all that trouble to save Lysaer is probably significant. Way back in the first book, Arithon believes everything he has done would be for nothing if he failed to save Lysaer. Arithon's destiny is set, it seems just about every power on Athera knows it although it is still a mystery to us. I would presume Lysaer is the one in danger of being lost. All they can do to Arithon at this point is kill him, which is not it seems going to make any difference to his destiny, but would to Lysaer's. If Arithon is the key to Lysaer's deliverance from jeopardy, it would seem the Mistwraith has had Lysaer plan his own downfall.
The clues in Stormed Fortress concerning the conditions of that salvation I thought were a bit strange. But I would assume the second option of Arithon's strength staying the course of his fate would be best for Lysaer. I interpreted that as Arithon has to return after the execution for Lysaer to be completely redeemed, although he still might refuse it. How Lysaer would be redeemed for past mistakes before that might be interesting, maybe he comes to his senses and accepts forgiveness before Arithon dies.
Do we not know why Ciladis is guarded and sleeping under Paravian wards though this conflict?
quote:'Of us all, Ciladis was the least shielded. More than finches found joy in his presence.'
quote:Why not let the darkness unveil its own light, and resurrect its next hope of salvation?'
'Ciladis could not,' Sethvir whispered. Anemone pale in the thin flood of starlight, he kept up his laboured speech. 'After one armageddon and its cost of deliverance in slaughter, I believe he would finally go mad.'
All seven Sorcerers have to make it through the conflict, they cannot afford to lose Ciladis. The Paravians have made sure he survives till after the conflict is over. There was a hint about how Ciladis would be woken, and we could guess from that who would be doing the waking. Some might notice it when re-reading, it is kept in Althain Tower, and is an object a certain Masterbard would find irresistibly tempting.
originally posted by Kassandra
Well, I'm glad Janny's working on the next book.
I must admit it was a shock to open this one and find 250 years had gone by.
Even with the 5 Centuries Fountain, time's getting a bit short, maybe a refresher from the Fountain is about due!.. I do enjoy the books but I can't quote them.
The Initiate's Trial seemed to me to be a really clever way to comment on the zealotry sweeping our own good Earth/Athera.
I can't help but wonder how much of the wonder here on this planet has been shattered.
Wurts makes some interesting analogies and that was my favorite part.
I just had to comment on the Sorceror's as they seemed pretty good for nothing in this book. I guess that's why they cast Dakar on his own, to see if he was ready for more stringent tasks.
I felt really badly about King Gestry and I still am confused about why he was abandoned except for Dakar and also the black stallion left for dead by Asandir after he nearly came apart safeguarding Isfarann's spirit in the grimward and who couldn't possibly know(could he?) that the dragon would make the black horse immortal and a friend Arithon desperately needs.
I have a thing for animals, you see?
originally posted by Trys
quote:I don't understand where this statement is coming from. Mistress of the Empire, the last collaboration with Ray Feist, was published in 1993 the same year as Curse of the Mistwraith. Janny has not gone 'larking' off with any other author in the last two decades.And is Janny going to write another before 4 years are up and not go larking off with Feist and leave us hanging?
originally posted by Annette
Although Janny is hard at work on the next masterpiece that does not mean it is not going to take 4 years to get it ready though. There was 4 years between the last 2 books and Janny seemed to be working as fast as she could. The books seem to be getting harder to write.
originally posted by Matt Roper
So, I had deferred reading IT, hoping to wait until DC was released to read them together, but I just couldn't hold off any longer. So yay, I finally get to read spoiler topics! Here is a few of my random thoughts having just finished the book.
First up - loved it, just as I love every book in this amazing series. Thankyou Janny for all your hard work, I just love the way you write. After reading a WoLaS book, the next book I read always seems childish and dumbed down in comparison. It takes a while for my brain to shift back to the lower diction.
Regarding Kassandra's question about Isfarran, I believe Asandir laid in the dying horse's aura a request for the dragon to intervene, who did so in gratitude for Asandir's previous efforts to settle the dead drake's spirit in the grimward. While he had no surety that Seshkrozchiel would help, that was certainly his hope/plan. The reason he rode the horse (and himself) so hard was that he had get out of Havish ASAP, before Arithon entered, lest he somehow be seen as aiding Arithon and thereby breaking the non-intervention oath. At least that was my understanding.
Regarding the huge time lapse, I quite like the idea of it, but I'm not sure why such an extended period was necessary, especially when very little has changed either for the major characters or the world in general during that time. I guess there were a LOT of wraiths. It seems like stuff happened for about 10 years after SF, then absolutely nothing until the start of IT. I too am still confused by all the oaths and debts and deals and betrayals that happened, but I understand they have been deliberately withheld and look forward to DC shedding some more light on that missing period.
I am sad we missed seeing the Great Schism though - I was thoroughly proud of Lysaer after finding out he had divorced the True Sect. (though surprised he had taken up residence in Rathain, of all places. I guess he was pretty well known there, moreso than in the southern kingdoms, and its the next major kingdom other than Tysan and Havish…). In fact, I loved Lysaer in this book. His personal torments were pretty heart-wrenching. Near the end I thought the Paravian presence might cleanse him of the curse, only for Arithon to then fall back under the curse from Morriel's snare. That would have been a devastating(ly awesome) reversal.
I loved that it was the F7 who unleashed the wraiths on Athera. Talk about desperate measures, that was one hell of a gamble!! How it must have chafed Morriel that she was forced to let Arithon live! I love seeing that woman's plans fall to ashes, haha.
My one qualm, though, is that the wraiths have now been entirely disarmed, and offscreen! Personally, I derived a lot of anticipation and tension from that constant, looming threat of a wraith incursion, and had been expecting it to happen in the finale of the series, but as usual I can never predict Janny. I guess there are still the wraiths in Rockfell…
Tarens is awesome. I hope he is reunited with his father, whom we glimpsed in that one brief vision. After losing so many family members already it would be nice for him to have one returned. I hope his father didn't die in the Lanshire campaign… that would be devastating.
Daliana - also awesome. She might not have brute muscle but the girl has skills! Would love to see her in action some more, not just applying her talents to darts.
What's the deal with Saroic? I assume that part was included for some future purpose. My understanding is that, being of s'Gannley descent, he will become Tysan's next caithdein after his grandfather. But then, Daliana is also of s'Gannley descent, and it seemed like she was effectively being asked to stand as caithdein pages later. Was that just an unofficial request for help from Asandir to Daliana? Did she simply swear a caithdein's oath but not officially take up the title? Did Sulfin Evend ever actually hold the title? I admit, I've never been able to get my head completely around the bloodlines and their roles, especially when they outbreed and mix and whatnot. If someone could clarify Saroic and Daliana's positions for me that would be great.
I loved that backstory tidbits about Jessian and the pre-Atheran relationship between the Beidar and Koriathain. I have a feeling that relates to one of the short stories, but I haven't yet been able to get my hands on those. Was there any progress about releasing the shorts stories here on the website, Janny?
I hope Verrain gets some more page-time. He seems like an under-utilised resource. Mirthvain never sleeps I suppose. Poor guy must be itching to get out of that swamp though.
Is Morriel not aware of the fact that the F7 will have to destroy mankind before letting the compact break? Or is she plotting her way around that outcome as well?
originally posted by Matt Roper
ALSO:
"…the field Sorceror engaged the Creator's sublime portal and vanished."
Where the heck has Asandir gone??
originally posted by Annette
But the Fellowship hardly unleashed the wraiths on anyone, and Selidie knew that. The Fellowship were doing their best to keep them away from Athera. Way back in one of the other books, as Morriel the Koriani Prime had been told of the problem and the possible solution. By the end of Stormed Fortress the problem was getting worse, so it was hardly surprising the Fellowship intervened to save Arithon, they needed him, and it seems Seledie thought it was a good idea to get rid of the free wraiths, or they got her to agree to it some other way. Arithon could spend centuries confined in horrific circumstances, redeeming all the wraiths, and then Selidie could kill him.
I did wonder why the Biedar needed to split time in order to retrieve Arithon. Did it only take 249 years to redeem the wraiths of two planets, or did it take longer? Sometimes Janny said there had been countless millions of wraiths, sometimes countless thousands. And Arithon had been doing it for thousands upon thousands of days. Arithon was possibly badly injured before being imprisoned, and the wraiths might not have turned up straight away, the Fellowship would need time to organise such an elaborate construct to hold and seperate them.
Dakar saw Arithon playing in darkness for decades (Fugitive Prince pg 135 in the newest pb version), so either Arithon was blind and in pain or he was elsewhere either before his term of imprisonment, or maybe it was later and will turn up in DC. Or maybe it was just Dakar's interpretation that was out and it was the same term of imprisonment, he was just seeing it from a different perspective.
I would think Asandir went where ever he wanted to.
originally posted by Gary
About potential reasons for the extended time lapse, there were a number of changes; two seem especially interesting to me (and really required large amounts of time to come about):
- The clansmen in Rathain have increased their sensitivity to the mysteries quite significantly. The three children seemed to have much clearer awareness of the flux than any ancestor we experienced from before the timeskip (except Jieret). Not sure what this means for the story, but if Arithon regains his full range of abilities and memories, he might have some interesting strategic ideas 
- Lysaer has had ~250 years without Arithon's presence. He was very young when he first came through West Gate; how can he battle the curse if he does not know who he is? I think he probably has a much better idea now of how the Curse pulls at his wishes, and where they diverge from his natural autonomous choices.
Other changes over time:
- Arithon's sensitivity to emotion, but that did not require 250 years, if Janny decided otherwise?
- The Koriani organization seems a lot more corrupt than before Selidie's ascent to Prime - what happened to "we do not kill"? And I can't see that trap at Scarpdale being very happily received by Seniors in earlier books. Am I underestimating the behaviour of the Koriathain in the beginning, or has Selidie caused an ongoing loss of morality? Especially without a First Senior, there seems to be no counterbalance within the system to her decisions.
- What's this drake war thing?
originally posted by Sleo
Janny's just posted a new short story in the webstore. There are now two there in eformat - Sundering Star and Reins of Destiny.
originally posted by Sleo
Check the thread 'Other Short Stories' for the link.
originally posted by Annette
Well the stories are hardly new, although we got a nice painting of the falls of Lind'stair as a cover for new ebook version of Reigns of Destiny, as well as Havish's blazon, which Janny showed us earlier.
Be interesting to see if we get Melhalla's gryphon blazon with Child of Prophecy, or perhaps Shand's chevrons.
And a glossary for them all would be nice,especially Reins of Destiny had some interesting names.
originally posted by Auna
Seeing the stories available for ebooks made me very happy, since I just recently purchased all the WoLaS books on kindle and was wondering where I stuffed those anthologies that had the short stories in them.
I make a horrid librarian and my books are not sorted properly. My Janny books are mostly clumped in one area in what is supposed to be the A's and universes like Star Trek or Forgotten Realms. Totally makes sense if you are lazy and want fast access to them though. *giggles*
To reply about the Koriani - Here's my take:
In the short story. The Sundering Star, when Jessian meets the Biedar they show her how they see the sisterhood's meddling as ugly, blind, arrogance. This was before the worlds were destroyed. So in their view the Koriani were always a corrupt organization.
However, the Prime feels her duty is to humanity and she is doing everything she feels is vital to that end and has even justified stealing Seledie's body to maintain humanity's knowledge locked away in the Waystone which only she can access. If this precious knowledge is threatened then she has no choice but to kill because to lose all that knowledge would be devastating to humanity in her opinion.
The F7 is also a terrible threat to that knowledge and the Prime is doing everything in her power to break the compact to hopefully force the permanent exile of the Parathians and remove the F7's purpose to exist.
So, they have always been corrupt as long as we've known them. But the increased dangers have made it seem like they are more corrupt than normal. Also, they have been in slow decay as far as community relations go as they increase the number of unreasonable trades they make for services rendered.
originally posted by Annette
I never saw the entire Koriani as corrupt, just the head of the order and a few seniors. Morriel was mad even before she possessed Selidie, she just seems to have got worse. Does not matter what the other seniors think of her mad plots and warping of the basic foundations of the order, they are her enslaved puppets and can do nothing. The only one in the order who seems capable of independent action is Elaira. And the only reason I can think of as to why that personal crystal of hers would have insisted on continuing to serve is it knows prime power is eventually going to fall to Elaira.
I am sure Elaira would waste no time cleaning the order and its priorities up. What she does with all those red banded harpies who do not want to reform will be interesting. I never could work out what their original purpose was. But I am sure helping their Prime to destroy Athera was not it. Maybe they and their Prime were meant to be doing something else.
Morriel seemed to have no interest in Athera if she was willing to sacrifice the planet to get her freedom from that compact. If Athera and her high resonance are the source of the increased power the Koriani have, would not destroying the planet destroy most of their power as well? What was Morriel expecting to do if she had her own way? Obviously it is not Athera's humanity the Prime is interested in protecting. Maybe she hopes to restore that star spanning civilisation they lost, and put that knowledge she is protecting to use. But still she seems to be going around it the wrong way. Even if she had the powers of the creator, she has a heart of stone and no compassion what so ever, so like the dragons, whatever she created would go wrong.
And the F7 seems no threat to the knowledge the Prime is protecting, by the Law of the Major Balance they can do nothing. It is the compact that prevents Selidie unleashing that knowledge. The compact only covers what is native to Athera, so even though the Waystone was sitting in Althain tower all those centuries, it was untouched. Sethvir even handed it back when the Koriani eventually got around to asking for it.
The Koriani agreed to the compact when they settled with rest of humanity. There is probably something there we have not seen yet, concerning the balance of power between all the different groups on Athera, but still no one forced the Koriani to stay.
originally posted by Matt Roper
Hmm… did I misinterpret chapter 2, regarding the wraiths arrived on Athera?
"Malice spiked the Prime's anger. The sweet hour of ascendancy heated her blood, all the more rich since the vicious riposte thrust upon her by the Fellowship Sorcerors' underhand tactic: a deadly influx of wraiths unleashed on the world as their ruthless weapon in counter-threat. Unconscionably, they had gambled! The survival of mankind on Athera had been callously tossed on the board as their bargaining chip, with the innocent populace placed at risk under a lethal threat to buy Arithon's chance for reprieve."
It seems as if the Koriani captured Arithon, then the F7 intentionally allowed the wraiths into Athera, forcing Morriel to stay Arithon's execution so he could deal with them. She seems very bitter about the fact - it's not a plan she agreed to willingly. I could be wrong.
I, too, imagine Asandir has gone wherever he intended, but this seems to be different to a "simple" focus circle transfer, especially since that's the last we see of him in this book. Can't wait to find out!
Thanks for the tip about the short story availability, just bought and read them both =) Was shocked to see a certain corpse in Reins of Destiny!
Regarding the Koriani… if they weren't corrupt before Kincaid's weapon and Jessian's betrayal, they certainly were afterwards. Jessian initially believed in the Order's humanitarian nature, and I suspect many of the lower level sisters in current times believe the same. But the Prime and seniors have definitely corrupted those ideals.
The Order now exists only to sustain itself, not to sustain humanity. Any humanitarian work they actually do seems to be a front a) to keep the populace from turning on them, and b) to lure in new recruits to bolster their own power. Morriel's current actions seem to be in line with the order's prior policy of unrestrained ambition, regardless of cost/ethics/etc…
Am I right in thinking that Davien was Kincaid? I can't remember if his identity was ever revealed. I'm basing that assumption purely on Kincaid's description as brilliant in Sundering Star - admittedly not much to go on, but it's a common descriptor for Davien. I had previously thought it was Sethvir but I can't remember why, probably because he seems like the F7's leader, even though they are all equal (but different). It's been way too long since I read the early books…
This is probably getting off track from the thread's topic… sorry.
originally posted by Sleo
Good thoughts Matt! You're right about the wraiths being used to keep Arithon alive. It says fairly early on that Sethvir is Kincaid. I think Asindar refers to him as 'Cal' - Kincaids first name I believe.
originally posted by Annette
Matt, you are looking at the wraith problem from the perspective of a power drunk, mad woman, who will destroy anything and anyone to get what she wants. It was Selidie who was using the underhand tactics to try and get what she wanted, not the F7. You turn everything around that Selidie was thinking and you get closer to the truth.
It was not Asandir who had been lying awake night after night all those years hoping Selidie would change her mind, it was Selidie who had the sleepless nights, and she was the one who demanded a child as a hostage, even though she already had a hostage, again because she thought she could use that child, her planned strategies came to nothing. If Selidie could have, she would have sabotaged the star construct to unleash those wraiths in a bid to break the compact. We have yet to see if she actually did. At least that is one less thing she can use now to get what she wants. But there are still other options she could and has used.
The Koriani purpose was to preserve the knowledge of their former civilisation, this was it seems to supposedly benefit humanity. Knowledge is not always wisely applied, or that beneficial. They had that knowledge once and destroyed themselves, all those who wanted to keep their technology were sent through South Gate, all those who started on the path to such dangerious knowledge and would not give it up, were also sent through South Gate before it was closed with the Mistwraiths arrival. The civilisation on those two worlds eventually destroyed itself, just like it seems every other human civilisation other than the Atheran one has. How the Biedar managed to go a different path has not been explained, and probably will not be till the last book.
The Paravians were trying to protect humanity from itself with that compact, to give humanity a chance to develop enough that they would not need technology or would be wise enough to know how to use it. The Biedar are an example of what humanity could become. They can travel from planet to planet, yet have no technology. Running true to form, knowledge, greed and ignorance seem set to destroy the compact.
And although the Koriani methods and purpose might have left a lot to be desired. They still seem to have had some respect on Athera before Morriel became Prime, so it is Morriels madness that has probably had the most influence on where even what knowledge they could use has lead them, her entire order is tainted by necromancy now. Possibly it was Morriel who introduced the changes to the Koriani oath and practices that made that possible.
When the knowledge the Koriani were fiddling with escaped their clutches and started necromancy off in the first place, their oath was not so strict. It did not seem apparent when exactly that happened. But all the examples we know of on Athera seem to have occurred after Morriel became Prime. And it was the knowledge they stole and those crystals that made all that possible. Probably all those focus stones and crystals are stolen as well, but we have yet to see if their previous owners also followed the Koriani to Athera. But there is one hidden group we have not yet seen.
And Sleo is right, in CotM Asandir calls Sethvir Cal and in the glossary we were told that was his mortal name before the sorcerers swore fellowship.
And you will notice the first time we hear the name Calum Kincaid in Fugitive Prince
quote:Our first Prime Matriarch stood at the right hand of free governance before Calum Kincaid sold out his great weapon and became the destroyer of worlds.
- Fugitive Prince
Well if she stood at the right hand of governments they never knew about it, they were a covert group, no one knew they existed. The knowledge was probably never meant to be used as a weapon, and the important bit there is I think that the Koriani (or whatever they called themselves back then) were meddling in politics before Calum's group were put under pressure and eventually forced to give up their research, although they did not give it to those who were demanding it. And we have seen how the Koriani work to know what they were probably up to. You look at what Morriel was saying after that comment, turn it around the other way and think on it.
You have to wonder who exactly is really to blame for what happened to that star spanning human civilisation that was lost. Arithon felt responsible for not only the deaths he caused, but also for those Lysaer caused, who was responsible for what happened? The guilt the fellowship felt, what they believed they were, were what drew them to the dragons attention and helped make them what they are today. The Fellowship when mortal might have provided the knowledge that was used, but who provided the motive to use it as a weapon? Who was manipulating the pawns to get what they wanted? Who was really the destroyer of worlds? Maybe the current Koriani purpose holds just a fraction of guilt?
If you look at Sundering Star you will really start to wonder what the Koriani were up to. It was not for humanitarian reasons they sent Jessian to Scathac. And why were they saving all those talented children on other worlds, what had happened to their parents that they were left vulnerable in the first place, who exactly started the war? The Koriani were also involved in the start of the rebellion on Athera, Morriel was Prime, was it really Davien's fault? We have not really seen exactly what part he played. For all we know he could have just stood back and done nothing, even though he knew what would happen. Even if he somehow got all the factions together, is he responsible for what they did?
I think Janny eventually told us who Cal was in Peril's Gate, but I am pretty sure there were hints before that. Selidie is still in the dark about who the Fellowship actually are.
originally posted by Sleo
Annette, I think the F7 did exactly what it said in the book. Released the wraiths on Athera to force Morriel to delay Arithon's execution.
originally posted by Annette
No, think about it, why would they? It would be against everything they believe to deliberately endanger all life on the planet. Even to save Arithon, they would not do it, the Fellowship are not the ones rewriting their moral code each time they are challenged, they will stick to their stance no matter the consequences. Selidie is the only one who would endanger humanity and would have the power to free the wraiths, so if she is blaming the Fellowship for doing it, then she was the guilty party. Look back through everything she has said through the books, especially when swayed by emotion.
Look at what else she says and thinks in that passage, is any of it actually true? If you go through each thing and work it out, Selidie is not going to actually tell the truth about that one thing, she is going to deny the truth and blame the Fellowship (or someone else) for it all. Why would you believe anything Selidie said in the first place, has she ever shown any care for humanity? Has she ever shown she can be trusted to tell the truth? Look back on what she said when complaining about the compact, or her Waystone was any of it true?
originally posted by Annette
What would Selidie have done to keep the Fellowship busy while she was having her enslaved puppets capture Arithon?