originally posted by Lyssabits
Additionally, they were very close to not sanctioning Arithon for Kingship, not because they thought he was unworthy, but because they knew it was not the calling that would bring him the most joy. It was only Dakar's Black Rose prophecy that decided them that, his happiness or not, they would do their best to crown him as King. (Which I always kind of thought was weird. Because they're smart guys, yanno, and you'd think they'd pick up on the specific phrasing of Dakar's prophecy. Were they just so eager to reform the Fellowship that they were willing to gloss over the deeper implications of Arithon "accepting" kingship? Or did they think that forcing the conflict between the two brothers was the only route to getting his acceptance? That part has always kind of bothered me.) Also, they have more options with Lysaer than Arithon in terms of securing heirs. They know there's still s'Ilessid on Dascen Elur, if worse comes to worst, they have other sources to tap there, some may argue, "purer" sources un-tainted by the gift of foresight from his mother. Although there is always the obstacle of the unidirectional gates, but yanno they're the Fellowship, I'm sure they would think of something.
originally posted by Andy
While it is true that Lysaer is not the last of the s'Illisid bloodline, it is Arithon and Lysaer's elemental mastery of shadow and light – the bane of the Mistwraithe – which is equally important to the Fellowship. Until the wraithes are finally dealt with, Arithon and Lysaer are unique and irreplacable and there is no indication that their mastery of light and shadow are hereditary vis-a-vis their progeny. E.g., Lysaer's son does not have his light power.
originally posted by Hunter
Lyssabits - I don't think the Fellowship has any thought now of sanctioning Lysaer after the Curse. Before the Curse, Lysaer was one of their hopes of restoring peace and reconciling the clans with the townsfolk.
Lysaer is now thrown out of the Compact so he's even less likely to be sanctioned… once thrown out, could he be "thrown back in" to the Compact? It's an interesting question.
As this series has progressed, the "requirement" for Lysaer has really diminished to the point of irrelevance. The whole point of Arithon and Lysaer together was that their paired gifts of light and shadow would basically confine the Mist containing Desh-thiere. With the real issue that free wraiths have still yet to arrive out of Marak, Light and Shadow may not be useful. Other means, such as a masterbard or Arithon's strategy at the end of TK - which both need Arithon - seem to be the path to salvation with the Mistwraith.
originally posted by Auna
Lysaer is a good statesman, so he would still be invaluable to helping mend the clan vs townsman rift. However, he appears to have a long, hard road ahead before he gets to the point where he might see peace as a viable strategy or begin to fight the curse's influence on him.
originally posted by Miranda Bertram
This isn't really all that relevant, but all this talk of sanctioning Lysaer and so forth made me think of it - remember that scene in CotM when Lysaer 'infected' Arithon with the Curse through a bolt of light? Well, wasn't he able to do that by aiming at Traithe's raven? But Arithon (in typically self-sacrificing style) saved the raven rather than himself. (Is that right? Correct me if not). So anyway, my question:
If Lysaer had crisped the poor bird, what do we think would have happened to Traithe? Janny's never (as far as I can remember) been that clear about the exact relation between Traithe and the raven. Can he live/perform magic without it?
Miranda
originally posted by Trys
Perhaps a more significant question given the dual nature of that raven is what would have happened had Lysaer's bolt struck the bird.
originally posted by Miranda Bertram
One more thought, guys, gals:
QUOTE: IF the trait of justice is descended through the S'Illessid line - then how, WITHOUT THE MISTWRAITHE, was Lysaer's father's sense of justice so warped out of true in his emnity with Karthan? (In fact, through seven generations?)
The Fellowship have, haven't they, admitted that the s'Ilessid family trait was 'flawed'? That makes sense, I should have thought, and explains Lysaer's father's behaviour - because, isn't justice a subjective quality, based on your opinions/upbringing/religion, rather than a universal and absolute abstract, such as compassion. The townsmen may, with some justification, feel that it is right that the thieving clanborn should be brought to trial and 'justice', whilst the clans, just as powerfully, believe that it is unjust that the townsmen believe in owning land, and that therefore much of the trade carried out by the townsmen is illegal, and therefore open to theft anyway.
So anyway, Lysaer's father evidently had a bad temperament and a skewed upbringing, as well, perhaps, as Trys suggests, a lesser dose of the s'Ilessid quality, and the consequence is a stubborn, narrowminded adherence to his own form of justice, which perhaps differs from what someone else might think of as justice. Just some thoughts.
Miranda
originally posted by Hunter
I don't think was Lysaer behind the bolt - it was the Mist-wraith… given Arithon's mage training and wards, similar to the Koriani getting access to Arithon via Elaira's love (which the Paravian tower @ Ithamon was warded against), the Mistwraith knew Arithon's compassion would force him to try and protect the Raven, thereby giving the wraith the chance to access Arithon through his Compassion.
originally posted by Trys
Miranda,
Lysaer's father was just the most recent king of Amroth to be engaged in war with the 'pirates' of Karthan. His attitudes are likely inherited from his father and exacerbated by his wife's 'defection' to his enemy. In other words he was horribly human and exhibited many of the worst traits of the species. 
Trys
originally posted by max
Just a silly thought here people. I like ravens and I know Traithe's raven friend is probably special so I'm glad he didn't get killed. I know Arithon saved the bird because of it's being special also. So even tho Arithon's gift of compassion borders on the insane side of reason, I just don't think he would drive his car over a cliff rather than run over a raven on the road!! [grinning at ya!!]
originally posted by R’is’n
I just noticed this reread, how the mistwraithe was manipulating Arithon. I have been able to see how it affected Lysaer quite easily, but Arithon's was more subtle. There's this one sentence where he is arguing with himself about using his mage powers against the Etarrans, and then the next paragraph, there's a reference to the oath he's sworn to the Deshans, to Steiven and the fact that he cannot let the clans be decimated. So, even though in the past he didn't use his power to save his father, he does this time. I think that's the mistwraithe at work?
I could be way off - or a real ninny for not noticing it until now. But I really didn't 'GET' how the mistwraithe was controlling Arithon, till now. And this is the seventh re-read!
originally posted by Blue
Miranda, EXCELLENT question!
We have seen something of what "Little Brother" the raven really is in PG, and from Janny's own elaboration here on the board - an aspect of Athera itself.
IF Lysaer had been so compelled by the wraith controlling him, to attack "Little Brother" rather than Arithon, how would Athera itself have reacted? Especially given, with what we know now about the world itself, from PG, that it is alive and conscious of everything that is going on on her surface.
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I still chuckle over the female raven aspect of the Raven's being allowing herself to be called brother. I wonder if Traithe ever wakes up and wonders where the occasional raven egg comes from?
originally posted by Lyssabits
Hunter - Sorry, but my response was in no way meant to indicate that the Fellowship may at some point in the future sanction Lysaer for Kingship, it was actually meant to say exactly the opposite. I thought I'd been clear, but I suppose not.
It is my belief that, although they would have liked a s'Illessid king sooner rather than later, the Fellowship decided early on in the series that Lysaer was unfit. I was responding to Max's question as to whether the Fellowship had sanctioned Lysaer before the mistwraith cursed him and Arithon. They had, as Roisin noted, not sactioned him, and after casting strands, I think they were firmly convinced that he'd never be able to be the king they needed. Now that he's been thrown out of the compact, I can't imagine a senario outside of direct incercession by the Paravians on his behalf that would have the Fellowship even consider sanctioning him for Kingship.
originally posted by Hunter
Ok… no problems.
I still think it's worth asking the question as to whether there will need to be High Kings in the future. These were created as part of the Compact… if they Compact is broken or ceases to be relevant, then High Kingdoms, as currently defined, would then go away…
originally posted by Lyssabits
Maybe it's just me, but I've never thought that the Compact necessarily stipulated that there had to be High Kingships as they were implemented. I always thought the Compact was sort of a more nebulous set of rules governing what mankind could and could not do, and where they could and could not live.
Morriel's actions in unbalancing the lane force did nothing on a political level, but was described as her attempt to break the Compact by the Fellowship. (I think? It's been awhile since I read that one. I don't think I was ever clear on whether it was the diversion she created by unbalancing the lanes or if it was her unorthodox succession that the sorcerers were referring to.) That incident, and Davien's attempts to overthrow the High Kings, always led me to draw a disctintion between the poltical system of Kingdoms, and the actual Compact. I think that this political system is what the Fellowship believes is the best system of government that will serve the Compact, but that it's not necessarily the only available route.
Then again, Davien's motives and his goals for the rebellion are so unclear that I have no idea what exactly it was meant to prove. Also, Morriel's knowledge of what the Compact is seems to be fatally flawed if she believes that she'll actually be able to break the Compact in such a way that the sorcerors will be just sit back and let mankind return to the stars… so I don't know, perhaps this hasn't added anything to the current conversation.
I think if the Compact is broken, you're correct, High Kingdoms as they are currently defined would go away… because I assume that if it ever were broken, and mankind's subequent actions were determined to threaten Paravian survival, they'd all be kicked off the planet, in one way or another.
originally posted by Auna
From what I recall, the compact is the Fellowship's agreement that they will stand as surety that humanity does nothing to threaten Paravian survival. What Morriel did was upset the lane balance so badly that Athera was threatened. This would definitely have broken the compact had the Fellowship not been able to scrape together resources to hold things together long enough for Asandir to fix the grimwards.
Morriel believes the Paravians are gone forever, hence she thinks the Fellowship is unreasonable in keeping rules in place that prevent humanity from spreading out and advancing. As long as the Paravians remain gone, more people will begin to feel like her and it will be harder to contain humanity.
originally posted by Miranda Bertram
Auna, very true. What I find more difficult to understand is exactly what Morriel thinks humanity should be spreading out and advancing towards. I just don't see what her aims are - can anyone out there tell me what's in the Koriani manifesto? Other than recruiting more magical talent…but why? What for? What is she going to do with all her witches?
originally posted by Andy
The scope and interrelationship between the Compact, the FoS, the High Kings, and humanity are not completely clear to me, but here goes. The Sorcerors were bound by the drake dreams to defend the Paravians and ensure their survival. Right on the tail end of accomplishing this, rag tag, starfaring bands of humanity arrived at Athera, fleeing calamity and looking for sanctuary. Because the calamity was caused in part by the actions of the Sorcerors in their earlier lives, they (at least a majority of the seven) felt responsibility for the outcasts.
So the seven made a deal with the humans to allow them to inhabit Athera on sufferance in a kind of co-existence with the Paravians. But the Sorcerors did not realize that by allowing humans, they extended the threat to the Paravians, and thereby extended their obligation to protect the Paravians (now from the humans, as opposed to the drake spawn). Under the agreement with the humans (the Compact), the humans agreed to bide by certain conditions (where to live, how to co-exist with the Paravians, etc.)in exchange for being allowed to stay on Athera.
From the Compact, the Fellowship came up with this idea of the five kingdoms and they altered/enhanced the traits of certain bloodlines, those that would be the intermediary between the Paravians and the rest of humanity. So I agree that the Compact does not necessarily require high kingships. The Charters of those kingdoms do though. Also, the Compact, by the very nature of the Fellowship's overriding binding by the drakes, cannot ever threaten the survival of the Paravians. If it did, the Fellowship would have to revoke the Compact and destroy humanity on Athera. What input/influence the Paravians themselves had in the founding of the Compact or the kingdoms is unclear.
It seems that Morriel does not understand the consequence of her actions. She thinks her "Grand Conspiracy" is simply a way to wrest humanity from under the yoke of Fellowship control. What she doesn't realize is that if she succeeds, the Fellowship are duty-bound to destroy humanity. As Sethvir and Luhaine have mentioned on various occasions, it is most likely that the old girl is quite insane at this point and even if she did understand the consequences, she would do it anyway out of spite.
Davien's actions 500 years ago don't seem to violate the Law of the Major Balance; rather his actions signify his personal rebellion against his other colleagues and their reliance upon a flawed Compact, which must be inherently flawed if it relies so heavily on human nature, even human natures which have been enhanced and gifted with hereditary traints of compassion, justice, temperence, farshight and [fifth] or undergirded with magical crown jewels.
So one of the major questions (perhaps the ultimate question) which Janny will presumably answer by the end of the series is whether Athera will be restored to a pre-rebellion society; or whether the Compact will be modified and a new system of government for co-habitation by the humans will be created, which will probably have the effect of finally freeing the Fellowship from their binding. Just a hunch that it will be the latter.
originally posted by Auna
I believe Morriel wants humanity to be able to embrace space again. She feels she can somehow defeat the Fellowship eventually in order to gain this for humanity.
I think a new system has to be put in place, otherwise the Fellowship is tied to Athera forever and I don't think they exist at the time the prolog was written. Also, that wouldn't be a very happy ending for them, though I'll be sobbing if they do leave at the end of the series.
originally posted by Trys
This is not a spoiler topic and to put TK spoilers in here, even with a clear warning, could still spoil TK for someone, so I've moved the post(s) to the TK Spoiler topic.