originally posted by Ellydee
I read in one contemporary Christian author's text on forgiveness (I cannot remember his name now; I'll have to look it up later) that he considered forgiveness not simply as a declaration of brotherly love and affection. To him, forgiveness was a tool that allowed the wronged person to have closure. Forgiveness did not mean that the person accepted the offender's actions, nor did it mean that the offender was absolved of his crime. It simply meant that the forgiver was putting the situation behind himself/herself, never forgetting, but also moving towards the future instead of the past. Just sticking another two cents in.
I'm so sorry, max. What a horrible thing to witness; I'm not sure I could do the same. I agree; violence occurs everywhere, and we cannot excuse ourselves by saying we live in the safety of, as you said, an "ivory tower."
originally posted by Ellydee
Just to clarify the above post - I really should be in bed - I do consider compassion and love to be two of the greatest ideas present in today's cultures. The above author's opinion is of course not universal, merely specific to his point of view. Understanding is important in preventing conflicts from occurring as well as solving them, but I do NOT believe in the doctrine stating that those who have trespassed against you should be treated as though the crime never occurred - your crime would be not holding them accountable; they would never learn from their mistakes, otherwise.
originally posted by max
I apologize for blurting my rage out in such an unseemly fashion and not adhering to the spirit of this board which is to discuss the story in this series. It was inappropriate and rage is a problem I fight every day. Please forgive me.
originally posted by Trys
max,
Apology accepted. These things happen. The quality of a person is determined not by the inappropriate things they do but rather by how they deal with them after. 
Trys
originally posted by Blue
What Trys said, Max! We luv yah!
originally posted by Neil
No worries Max, I was exaggerating my points to see where the conversation went and unfortunately "touched a couple of nerves" of two people.
It's sometimes easy to write on the board in a moment of frenzy…and more often than not it means *we care*…better than not caring, I feel…but of course once posted we can't unpost 
We're "back" to the fight/flight reaction…and the Centaur's "human mistake" quote…and our environment (with all it's inherited problems) within which we are obliged to live within.
Which is, of course, Mankind's problem on Athera as well as on Earth with slightly differing constraints and results 
originally posted by Ellydee
No problem, Max!
Going on a complete tangent - I know what an adept does, but what are they, exactly? And do they experience death like other humans?
*Off to school again*
originally posted by max
You are all darlings to forgive me. I will try harder to be worthy of frienship with all of you. I think I need to avoid politics, I am not very tolerant of alot that is happening today. And to Neil, I should know better. I have a little brother and a little brother-in-law who will say anything to me just to set off an argument!! They love arguing. Just like lawyers. [smiling at ya]
originally posted by Ellydee
I think my question was answered in another post; found it . . . Never mind!!
originally posted by R’is’n
On Forgiveness: I read an interesting interpretation of what forgiveness is. I found it insightful and interesting in the context of reading some of the above posts.
Caroline Myss writes:
quote:– Anatomy of the Spirit"Forgiveness is not the same as telling the person who harmed you, "It's okay," which is more or less the way most people view it. Rather, forgiveness is a complex act of consciousness, one the liberates the psyche and soul from the need for personal vengeance and the perception of oneself as a victim. More than releasing from blame the people who caused our wounds, forgiveness means releasing control that the perception of victimhood has over our psyches."
Is this not how Arithon dealt with his guilt in Kewar?
People, religions, nations, all sucking some kind of energy from past 'wounds' to justify and fuel the 'fight'.
Imagine if all that was said was: "No more 'poor me/us'" to end conflict. How simple… how hard.
originally posted by Trys
R’is’n,
Bang on!
Trys
originally posted by R’is’n
I have another question (I'm on my 7th reread of the series!) about Lysaer - wondering if anyone can help me work this out:
IF the trait of justice is descended through the S'Illessid line - then how, WITHOUT THE MISTWRAITHE, was Lysaer's father's sense of justice so warped out of true in his emnity with Karthan? (In fact, through seven generations?)
originally posted by Trys
R’is’n,
Do you remember Janny expounding on the nature of these Gifts (geases)? The gifts do not necessarily manifest in full strength in every person alive at the time. The more people of a line then the more likely that the gift would be spread out and some people would have it in greater strength than others. Observing how Lysaer and his father acting during Arithon's trial, it appears to me that Lysaer has more of the gift than his father.
Trys
originally posted by Hunter
The other point of course is that the royal Gifts don't 100% define the character of the person - but rather enhances what was a strong characteristic of the bloodline. There are other factors at play. It's probably also worth remembering that on Athera, one of Asandir's many jobs was to select the heir to the throne and generally he picked the one with the strongest Gift. On Dascen Elur, inheritance seemed to have followed a more familial line, say with the first born male inheriting, rather than the child with the strongest gift. If anyone would have performed Asandir's role on Dascen Elur, it would have been the Rauven mages, but they didn't seem all that welcome in the kingdom of Amroth.
Kevor as Lysaer's son seemed to have inherited the full force of the Gift. I do wonder how much of this was also to do with Ellaine and whether Talith could have born such a strongly gifted son?
originally posted by R’is’n
Thanks for that, Trys, Hunter.
R
originally posted by max
In addition to what Hunter said, Lysaer was sanctioned for Highkingship until the Mistwraith spoiled him. He was, wasn't he??
originally posted by R’is’n
No, seems he wasn't - when they cast strands, they realised he would become disqualified after an event of clearing the Mstwraithe - I've just read the passage where Lysaer reforms his concept of justice, and makes a passionate statement to Traithe, who hears it with sadness because he knows that after containing the Mistwraithe, this prince is going to not be able to make good on his word. Instead they went to Etarra and sanctioned Arithon - and so the strife begins. Sad, tragic, still makes my eyes well up.
originally posted by Iris
Me too…Roisin, that is one of the parts that always gets me. More so now after knowing what lies in store for Lysaer. Sad.
originally posted by max
But before they cast the strands didn't they recognize Lysaer as fit for kingship? and after the Mistwraithe ruined him, didn't it also ruin Arithon? but still they sanctioned him. There is something there I am just not getting. [smiling at ya]
originally posted by Lyssabits
I think they were withholding judgement on Lysaer until after they'd had a chance to defeat the Mistwraith. If you recall, Asandir got pretty pissed at Arithon for getting himself captured by the scout, and thusly forcing Asandir to reveal that Lysaer is one of the descendants of a royal family on Athera. I know the big reason he gives for his ire was that he had wanted to introduce Lysaer to the corruption of the townsfolk first, and hopefully garner some sympathy for the clansmen. But I don't think they'd really decided to sanction him at the time. I think they were going to gauge his reaction to things, and if it turned out he wouldn't be able to accept the role and responsibilities of a sovereign as defined by the rules of the Compact, then likely they'd do what they are doing now, and wait for him to have a kid. Because as much as Lysaer was a good guy before he was cursed, he did have problems sympathizing with the clansmen and their thieving activities, and he shows clear sympathy for the townsfolk and their desire to grow beyond the limits of the Compact. And while you can argue that the directive of the curse is overwhelming, and it's the corruption of his geas of Justice that makes him use the convenient tool of the hatred between townsfolk and clanborn, I think he likely would have gravitated in the direction of the townsfolk on his own, and would have been a less than ideal candidate for High Kingship. We know the Curse doesn't control everything about him, and that it is inherent character flaws not of the Curse's making that cause the Fellowship to expel him from the Compact.