originally posted by Trys
Moved from the Stormed Fortress Excerpt as it contains TK spoilers.
originally posted by Hunter
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Arithon has already gotten Kyrialt's allegiance from Shand. What could be more outrageous than "stealing" Lord Erlien's son out from under him?
If Arithon wanted to do something **truly** outrageous he would ask Lord Erlien, Caithdein of Shand, to acknowledge him as the heir to the throne of Shand because of his descendency from Dari s'Ahelas.
Arithon does have the Fellowship Gift of Farsight now fully enacted courtesy of his trip through Kewar - Lysaer hasn't (yet) been able to fully activate his matrilineal Gift. As a blood descendant with the particular Gift of the Shandian Kingdom fully endowed, I would think Arithon might be eligible to be acknowledged by the Fellowship…
Only a small matter that he's so far refused his current Kingdom before there's a thought of him getting another Kingdom. If he could somehow annex Melhalla, he'll run all the Kingdoms in the East.
originally posted by Iris
Oh my. Hunter…I hadn't gone down that thought path yet! Very interesting…asking for anything similar even would surely be "outrageous"…thanks for kicking my brain back into gear.
originally posted by Hunter
Sorry Trys… I had perhaps thought a topic on Stormed Fortress might by inference require people to have either read Traitor's Knot or be ready to read things that may be spoilers…
Iris - Arithon seems to keep revisiting Shand, whose gift is Farsight. And Arithon's Sanpashir tribesfolk are also in this part of the world - I'm assuming they still have Elshian's lyranthe which Arithon left at the Sanpashir focus circle before his transfer to Jaelot to save Fionn Areth in GC…
Given Arithon's home kingdom of Rathain now has Lyaser mayor of Etarra and has become much more the Alliance stronghold than Avenor ever was, perhaps Arithon needs a formal base if he is to establish himself… and why not in Shand?
originally posted by Iris
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Of course! Now that I've been thinking about it, there have been a great deal of inferences throughout the texts…it wasn't until I had a larger map and better sense of direction that i could begin to place people and things in relation to each other. Arithon has spent quite a bit of time in that area and it seemed a geographic choice to me before…it is far from Rathain and Tysan. Janny has dropped a lot of information on us about how a person can be selected to rule based on their level of birth-gift power - no doubt the farsight gift is awake and very powerful in Arithon now.
Is it known, outside of the fellowship, that Arithon has s'Ahelas blood?
Also - what do you make of the potential connection between necromancy and the mistwraith? It has been playing around the edges of my mind. The ending scene in TK and the description of how the victim's spirit is effected by the experience (torn away from all that is good and joyful) - while reading it, I kept thinking about the wraiths and there seemed to be a connection. I haven't taken the time yet to go back and re-read excerpts where they are described. One of the biggest puzzles for me still is what and who is the MW and how could it be set free - rather than destroyed…cured or something. And what exactly drove the Paravians away? Did they choose to go to allow the humans time to resolve the issue on their own? Or did they need to leave for self preservation?
With most books and plot lines, I figure out quickly where everything is going and can generally determine what the final outcome will be…with this series, I am delighted to be confounded and surprised (not to mention enchanted with distracting detail!). It's a blast!
If I didn't have to make a living, I would be spending even more of my time mapping out these complicated "archs"…but it's nearly as much fun to just speculate with you guys!
originally posted by Blue
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I don't think Arithon would be heir to "just" Shand, no matter his descent. He is formally bound to Rathain, because he was born of s'Ffalenn lineage, and has the full fledged gift of his s'Ffalenn forebears, compassion. In CotM, he was formally invested as Crown Prince, and that tie was reforged in PG, when he saved the situation at Rockfell by calling on his tie to the land of Rathain.
It is POSSIBLE, however, that should Arithon marry and have more than one child, depending on the distribution of the family geas gifts, one child could become High King or Queen of Rathain and one could become High King or Queen of Shand. It would be up to the Caithdein of the realm to ask Asandir if the kingdom in question COULD crown a child of mixed family descent.
Arithon could act as an advisor to a child of his who succeeded in Shand, but being as he is formally tied to Rathain, his authority would be limited - unless Asandir or the Caithdein in office allowed him to do more.
It should be interesting, come Stormed Fortress, and we see more of what Arithon was up to in Shand. The comment made to Glendien about her children becoming His Grace's [Arithon's] feal subjects was interesting. Lord Erlien did not protest the "presumption" of someone making that claim on the behalf of the Crown Prince of Rathain.
Erlien is not noted for being shy or standoffish when it comes to matters of his own stewardship of Shand, and enforcement of the kingdom charter. In WoV, he commented, on his honor, that Arithon was NOT attempting to make any claim to the throne of Shand based on his descent from Shandian royalty, namely his mother's family. The clan chieftains Erlien called in for that conference were not shy about commenting, "Should he try, he would die here."
So either there is some sort of precedent that allows Arithon to bind the allegiance of the Shandian clans, or Erlien is acting on the authority granted him by the kingdom charter to allow this. IF there were an attempt to usurp the law, Erlien would have prevented any such action, even if he had to appeal directly to the F7.
originally posted by neil
i don't think arithon will ever try to rule shand…just doesn't fit for me.
Likely "outrageous" requests are complete surrender to Lysaer or withdrawal out of shand (not sure whether obligations to the compact would allow this normally?) or go to sea to search for the paravians…
Maybe outrageous is accepting Lysaer as ruler of shand?!? (strands predict that all towns fall to lysaer and clans face extinction…)
originally posted by Andy
I too agree that the idea of Arithon accepting the kingship of Shand is more unlikely than his accepting kingship of Rathain in the earlier parts of the book. But I've had a thought that has been tickling the back of my mind concerning Arithon, Davien, and the Five Kingdoms. Davien has stated or hinted that he has shaped Arithon to be the answer or the ultimate dilimna to the F7's ill-advised compact. By the conclusion of Stormed Fortress, Arithon will have favorable "ties" to 4 of the 5 kingdoms: Rathain (sanctioned and oathsworn crown prince); Tysan (basically saved the irreplacable clan blood lines of Tysan); Shand (Kyrialt's feal loyalty plus his maternal heritage); and Melhalla (this will be firmed up in Stormed Fortress, ::Traitor's Knot spoiler removed by admin:
. I guess the idea is that if Davien's gambit is successful and Arithon does affect a remaking of the Compact, is it possible that he will be the Uber High King of Paravia? My sense says probably not, because his conection to Rathain and Ithamon seems to make him exclusively part of that Kingdom. Although I can't see the completed picture, I sense there is something to this.
(Message edited by admin on August 31, 2005)
originally posted by James A. Messick
Actually I'm curious. I remember seeing somewhere that there was once a High King of Athera. Or is this just wishful thinking? blech i'll have to check.
originally posted by Hannah
Paravians (centaurs, that I can think of) have been past High Kings of Athera. Cianor was one? I think…
originally posted by Susan Canterbury
Cianor Sunlord was crowned High King of Athera in the Second Age 2545. I don't know about the possibility of Arithon ever becoming High King. It was stated the men who became high kings were picked because they had the characteristics needed for the lands. Each land had certain needs. However, from the other point of view it makes sense that Davien is trying to change the Compact. He is trying to avoid what he seems is the inevitable-the F7 having to destroy mankind. He knows he can't undo the Drakes binding and he firmly believes men are not capable of keeping the Compact. He would do anything to avoid repeating the same suffering the F7 had for their part in destroying the worlds of men. They found their redeemption on Athera, and he doesn't want to lose that. Janny's has certainly made me think about Davien's motives. He definitely has plans for Arithon and has said that he has forged Arithon into a weapon, but Arithon has left Kewar tunnel determined never to use mage craft to kill again or to draw Alithiel as a weapon to kill. So it would make sense that what he forged Arithon into is a High King. But is that the High King of Rathain or High King of Athera?
originally posted by Hunter
It's not clear whether the five high kingdoms of Athera in the Age of Men were in fact the same kingdoms as the Paravians themselves had.
Did you have a reference for exactly what race of Paravian Cianor was? I had the impression he was an Athlien sunchild (I could be wrong).
I think Arithon's Name as "fate-forger" is key to his future actions and some of the reasons behind Davien's motives and what he offered to Arithon.
My thinking is that Arithon **IS** a weapon, but not perhaps in the standard instance of a weapon as "a mindless killing machine" to quote from Finding Nemo. The method of Paravian "fighting" against the drakespawn and the properties of Alithiel (which Arithon found in Kewar) are I think the keys to how Arithon will continue to fight his battles.
originally posted by Susan Canterbury
In CoTMW it explains that Cianor was a Sunchild (page 143-145). Cianor is the one who awarded Alithiel to Kamridian S'Ffalenn. I believe that the Paravians didn't have kingdoms. There was only the High Kingdom of Athera. In CoTMW, in the story of Alithiel, it speaks of the Isaervian blades being made for use by the Ilitharis, but Alithiel was made in proportion for Ffereton's son, who was small. After his death, Ffereton gave it to the king's heir-a sunchild. It says eventually it was passed to Cianor who assumed the Paravian crown in 2545. Notice it says Paravian crown and in the glossary Cianor is called the High King of Athera. So the kingdoms as we know them in the Third Age did not exist.
My other point is that references to Arithon as a weapon did not refer to a weapon in the sense of killing or war. So we agree on that point.
originally posted by Kam
Depends which Cianor you're talking about, but both of them were sunchildren.