originally posted by Annette
Dragons are a mystery to me, but I thought maybe Sethvir was attempting to find out what Seshkrozchiel might do, when things finally turned for the worse, by speaking with Haspastion?
No ideas on sink-holes through time. The dragons are maybe getting ready to depart? Maybe Sethvir wanted to find out from Haspastion what the dragons were up to?
originally posted by Melanie Trumbull
I don't know how important it is:
but, at the risk of repeating myself,
remember that there is a connection between Kathtairr
and Eckracken.
True, Eckracken's grimward is on the Paravia continent,
not on Kathtairr.
However the Eckracken reference was made when the grimwards were being tended by the Sorcerers.
As I recall,
Sethvir said that at every full moon, Eckracken's mate,
who had died at Kathtairr,
was accustomed to mating with Eckracken;
therefore, Eckracken's ghost, at every full moon,
would become particularly wrathful,
and Eckracken's Paravia grimward would need attention.
So, when Asandir has to look in on the newly revived Kathtairr landmass,
to see what has come to life there…
would the anomaly there be connected
not only to Cathudokarr,
but to Eckracken in some respect?
originally posted by Annette
The dragon spirits are contained in the grimnwards, they would not I think be able to have any influence on what life develops on Kathtairr.
Eckracken's grimward on Paravia only needed Asandir's attention at the time, because the grimaward was damaged, Eckracken can get wrathful all he likes, he is not escaping a restored grimward. As far as we know there are no live dragons currently on Kathtairr. And if one was hibernating there, you would think they would have learned their lesson after their last batch of creations caused them so much trouble.
originally posted by Julie
Just finished my second read- even more questions and suspicions.
Walt- I do not think Lysaer will "redouble the toll of dead" when Arithon recovers. I was struck by how he has kept his gift under tight control (unless he has lost access to full command?)- particularly while suffering under a True Sect probe.
I also found it interesting that Lysaer calls Arithon his half brother and Dace(the mere servent) knew who he was talking about. I did not think that connection was known outside of a few select people who died centuries before. Distraught, Lysaer may not have noticed Dace's knowledge of the family ties or the Mistwraith's prime directive.
originally posted by Cheryl Hryncewicz
Recent lurker, first time poster. Have finished the first read through all four arcs and am through a second reading through FP.
Koriathain: Will there be a confrontation between Elaira and Lirenda? Lirenda will still cause much mischief when she finds out about the doings of the F7, formerly known as the brilliant research team of Calum Kincaid and six associates.
I don't think the Koriani will be eliminated since their knowledge of healing is needed to counter the results of the True Sect purge of talent. The Skyron Aquamarine will be cleared, freeing Koriani and Elaira from their oaths and restoring free will.
Arithon: A fair amount of time will pass to allow for healing. (Hoping A gets his T.H.E. Cat reflexes back after his spine is healed). He will have his memory restored and will not be pleased with the F7. The number of times he's passed back and forth through the veil has to have changed him. He will return to the Paravians and ask for help, perhaps with Ciladis. He'll get a new lyranthe from Elshian made specifically for him. He'll play at the focus point Athir; this will clear the dissonance in the lanes and allow the Paravians to return. It's titled ‘Song of the Mysteries’ after all. But before that, will he deal with the Koriani with Elaira? And there's the True Sect who murdered Vivet and Valien. Am unsure about the Biedar knife.
Dakar: There are his prophecies from FP (p. 135 mass ppk ed.), ‘a new city embedded in tangled black cane of old briars.’ and ‘A city sheeted in fire and burning; a child, dead in the dust’ as well as the black rose prophecy. The Severnir in Daon Ramon will be rechanneled to its original flow for part of the first prophecy to be fulfilled… a city needs water and black roses need water as well. Will A forgive him?
Lysaer: Will he be redeemed? The justice tower at Ithamon is rubble. His sense of justice will always be flawed, unless the tower is rebuilt? He and Dace/Daliana will work to try and foil the True Sect, wont be too successful, and he will have to face the music with the Paravians.
Elaira: Is it possible that's she's related to Dakar? Much is made of Dakar's philandering. With all the doxies he's visited over the past five hundred years, there had to have been a few bastard babies born. Even Elaira's mother. She could have been working in a brothel, got pregnant and was thrown out. Also, back in CofM, when Elaira goes to Enithen Tuer's place, Asandir knows who she is. Was this just from Sethvir telling him via his earth sense, or can Asandir see ancestry when looking at someone. He knew Sulfin Evend was a scion of s'Gannley…
F7: Are they really as benevolent as they seem? Adhering to the Law of Major Balance. Wasn't it a little too convenient for Dakar's mistake to have landed Arithon in stir with the Koriani and clear out a couple million wraiths? Would he have spent half his life willingly doing this? They say they want the Paravians to return, but in recent volumes they say only to want to restore the fellowship, or is it a given that they want the missing races to return? What of the fifth floor of Althain tower? Is the mystery weapon there? And why does Sethvir have a volume on Celestial Mechanics out on his desk in his library?
Is there a relationship between the Mistwraith and Necromancy?
There are the 17 grimwards, and the sleeping dragons. Will they dream a new world?
Davien probably has more foolish plans.
There's the East Gate. What lies past it? Who will go there? Townspeople who can't take the heightened energy needed for the Paravians to flourish?
And the Mistwraith at Rockfell tower. Everyone says both brothers are needed but why is Elaira referred to as the healer, bringer of light
And there is Arithon and Elaira. To what extent will they work together to meet the challenges of the Biedar? Will they live happily ever after? In Janny's previous work, Cycle of Fire and To Ride Hell's Chasm, there are happy endings (Taen and Jaric, Mikkael and Elannia) though it takes place off screen.
Looking forward to the final Arc and any and all short stories!
originally posted by Neil
I had a question about Drakes. There seems little that they cannot do in terms of just remaking reality around themselves…
So why were the Fellowship considered by drakes (and the F7 themselves if I understand the binding / destiny thing) to be the masters of destruction?
- Is it that drakes at that point had just come to limit themselves somewhat to avoid their own downfall? (there was a power without wisdom quote in COTM I think)
- Is it that drakes are limited in terms of what they could gather as resources to destroy things c.f. for a planet the F7 had the science to be even more destructive on a scale unimagined by drakes?
- Is it that drakes sleep and are therefore vulnerable during this time…do the F7 sleep post-binding? Drakespawn were dangerous simply because of numbers? And the planet was (and still is?) in a bit of a mess due to grimwards / drake damage? How the necromancers got a hold of the unborn drake-skulls I still wonder…
originally posted by Annette
The necromancers never had the unborn drake skulls far as I remember, the Koriani had them, then they they somehow passed into the possession of Sulfin Evend's family, then Raiett Raven gave them to Lysaer, who kept them locked up. Necromancers did not seem to ever have use of them. The jewels were mentioned as being koriani, so presumably they were responsible for the death of the unborn baby dragons. Was it mentioned any where else that the necromancers had the skulls first?
I would go for the dragons being plain outnumbered by their creations. Perhaps they can make life, but not unmake it with their dreaming?
HAHAHA - :X - there is so much coming!! Authorial duct tape is in force on this subject…
Here is a little tidbit (teaser) that will play forward (did you see it coming?) in Song of the Mysteries: Not all the Drakes agreed when it came to summoning the Fellowship/and the Conclave treaty that entails preserving the Paravians…some are still not on board…
originally posted by Neil
Annette - have you read black bargain?
re: drakes I now wonder whether they just get tired…and as you said numbers play out if faced with rapid breeding highly numerous drakespawn…
Perhaps drakes do not have the sub-atomic physics understanding that F7 have?
I think the elements are mentioned somewhere as not liking drakes (presumably drakes are - or have been in the past - just too unstable generally/temporarily/occasionally in the way they go about things)
Seshkrozchiel seems to be on the F7 side (and one of the drakes that dreamed? Asandir calls her friend. She refers to Davien and F7 as "ours"). I think there is a scene where she values what paravians are?
All the races have limits…mankind has limits of perception, paravians cannot hold false hope/ survive without the higher resonance electro-magnetics, drakes just have anger management problems?
The paravians did not want the F7 to know where they were (so do they not trust F7 or Sethvir at least? Sethvir has a scar from necromancy…the remaining cults have lasted this long…so they also have enough power/positional power to not have been destroyed)
originally posted by Annette
Well the F7 had to let in the good with the bad, when humanity was allowed to settle on Athera. I do not think it was ever their intention to wipe out necromancy. They knew it existed, but only in it's worse forms did they intervene.
The drakes created without love, I think that was the limitation that had their creations go so wrong.
And yes I have read all the side stories, including Black Bargain
originally posted by Annette
One thing I have wondered about, none of the damage the drakes did to Athera seems to have been healed, at least till Initiate's Trial. If the Paravians's were such paragons of healing, why is it they could not heal the damage done to the land? Perhaps something is still lacking? The resonance not high enough, there is an imbalance or still something missing?
Perhaps in some way it is similar to the problem of why Selidie's burnt hands could not be healed, spirit not matching the physical template? Just a thought.
It took both a dragon and a sorcerer to start life off on the most scarred land mass. If a dragon can recreate what was in the original location of a grimward, why can one not redream Kathtairr back to what it was like before it was destroyed? Rather than start from scratch with just one lone seedling?
originally posted by Melanie Trumbull
Neil, what you remember about
the Elementals versus the dragons,
comes from Grand Conspiracy, chapter Eight, "Strands"
with the convocation at the ruins of Earle.
In the paperback edition it is page 261.
"…an enmity that reached forward and back,
unto the dawning of time."
originally posted by Neil
Some random questions…
Hate Wraiths: they are "extinct" but also mentioned as being imprisoned in Rockfell…are they still there? (If so, there is no record in Verrain's library (in Ships of Merior)…Sethvir says "no. they wouldn't" and changes the subject?
When mankind originally approached Athera presumably they had the means to land…were some less keen to move on once they found Athera…and chose to stay? Others not? Davien would have given them supplies and encouraged them to move on? What was in it for the paravians? Did the F7 persuade them? How? Out of pity? Seems risky when said mankind can threaten your planet albeit F& have to act before then…what if the F7 can be stopped? (Did the paravians already strike a deal with Biedar that encouraged them to allow mankind to settle too)?
Do the paravians trust the F7? (seems not entirely?)
Do the paravians approve of the drake binding of F7? Presumably this is something a paravian would not do…but then drakes do not ask permission, no?
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originally posted by Melanie Trumbull
Neil, about the Biedar:
reference Initiate's Trial,
and a conversation early on
between Elaira, in the mountains,
and discorporate sorcerer Kharadmon.
The Biedar - Paravian agreement comes up
in the context of
the Biedar versus the Koriathain.
The distinction between
Hate Wraiths and Mistwraiths escapes me,
so I can't comment there.
originally posted by Neil
I think if the Biedar negotiated a stay on Athera, they would have explained their agenda and culture a little to Paravians? The came to an agreement outside the compact so F7/kingdoms have no jurisdiction over them. What could they have offered? Protection - at need - against humanity? The F7 even? Even dragons? Just what are they capable of at need I wonder? And what are their limitations?
originally posted by Annette
Ath's continuance maybe was the promise the Biedar brought with them? Humanity's presence seems to be causing a few problems. The knowledge stolen from the Biedar and warped to evil usage came with the Koriathian, Biedar followed to put things right.
If Arithon is going to be meeting the Biedar ancestry at some point in the next book, Arithon will at least finally have to listen to their prophecy that concerns his future, and probably the future of all humanity.
What will be put right? Arithon will I think need a bit of help next time he gets executed, they are likely going to do a more thorough job of it. Davien went to some trouble to keep Arithon away from any dragons, the Biedar are a perhaps a more likely source of creative solutions. What inheritance would Arithon have from his Biedar ancestry? Why was the stone knife created?
originally posted by Neil
Yes I suppose the Biedar may have just explained their purpose/responsibility on Athera and their willingness to respect free will.
Arithon refused to endorse the Biedar bizarre obligation since their interests collided? For his peace of mind…
well…regarding the knife, a Biedar crone would tell you this much. One purpose only: to end the defiled practice the F7 decry as the abomination ov necromancy…yet Sethvir refers it as consecrated "in part" for the purpose of breaking ritual workings of necromancy (why was he giving Elaira cryptic precaution?)
I still don't get who the two offshoot forms are? Are Koriani one of them? Does Erdane have some others or Hanshire or the True Sect? And the drake skull wards seem to be an open secret in many factions…and no wide-spread consequences yet? Will the elemental gift of Lysaer and Arithon be useful against drakes…or are drakes just not to be messed with…by any race?
I found what I wanted to see re: the curse. The incursion was static but this was possibly a restrained choice by the mistwraith as seen from Verrain’s (plus a little bit of unvoiced Sethvir) perspective. The mistwraith could have easily destroyed the brothers…somehow the curse created the necessary conditions to grow beyond what they otherwise might have become…maybe? Did it judge both brothers and estimate that they would not succeed in killing each other but end up changing the balance of power on Athera? Is the mistwraith that intelligent (even if insane?)
originally posted by Annette
Well the drake skull wards are destroyed, and no one is likely to be murdering any more unborn hatchlings, so whether or not it was widespread knowledge, no one else will be using them.
If the Grey Kralovir used blood, another offshoot lot of necromancers are likely to use bone for their evil deeds, and will probably end up mixed up with the false priesthood, if they are not already. Dakar did bring it up during Daliana's trial.
I am not sure if you would call the Koriathain necromancers or not, apart from Morriel they do not seem to condone necromancy. Their power is pulled from the whole group, through that sigil that gives their prime the power to control them, that use is not in accord with the major balance, but is it necromancy? Their prime can also strip away their individuality and use them as string puppets to do her bidding, which they might not agree to if they had free choice. That is a corruption of the Biedar knowledge, but is it necromancy?
I do not think elemental mastery is going to be used against the Drakes, Lysaer might have to use his powers of persuasion to make a deal with them, which might or might not involve some entrancing use of light, but I do not think either brother is going to be fighting dragons. Drake spawn maybe, although Arithon might make use of some of them yet.
Personally I think the brothers presence on Athera was just a catalyst to speed things up, mankind was always going to eventually break the compact. The brothers also seem to be the solution to the problem. Lysaer will eventually manage to combine all the townborn factions, under one ruler, which will be a good thing even if it was done for all the wrong reasons. But I still have doubts Arithon will be accepting kingship of that sort, Daliana might already be queen, might inherit that responsibility if Lysaer is gone.
originally posted by Saffy
Why did the Paravians allow humankind to settle? Out of compassion maybe. But i have a feeling some of mankind are adding to Atheras diversity of creation in some way. In the scene where Ciladis approaches the Paravians, it is mentioned the birds and trees only appear as birds and trees to Ciladis due to humanity's racial memory imprinting on what the paravians view as complex energy. So maybe humans are lending their racial memory and imagination to enrich Athera.
Something suggestive in the same vein is the paravians that have appeared before people all mirror the colouring of the person they appear on behalf of. The centaur in Doan Ramon that appears for Jieret is russet and autumn coloured. The sun child that lifts the curse on Arithon is black haired and green eyed. The centaur Tarens sees is fair like him. I'm not sure what this means. Are the paravians manifesting the physical traits of the humans they speak to out of empathy like how we unconsciously mirror people, or is it deeper than that. Or did I make something out of nothing.
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originally posted by Saffy
I believe the Koriani are the other offshoot of necromancy. An initiate dies ( or almost dies cant remember exactly) when the senior circle drain too much of her life energy without her consent. That may not be as gory as the Grey Kralovir but it is still necromancy.