Skyron ... Waystone ... minds and oaths

originally posted by motley

I was just rereading Fugitive Prince, and I became aware of the skyron's role in the Koriani order.

The Skyron holds all the vows in exchange for service - doesn't it also hold all the oaths?

Also, when the minds of various renegade initiates are 'stripped' - where are they placed? In the Waystone? If so, and like with Traith's lost 'bits' lurking in DeshThiere, perhaps those can be returned? I'm thinking of Seldie… her spirit can't have disappeared, it's trapped somewhere…

And I've had a rethink: when oh WHEN is Elaria just going to give up the ghost, and ask the F7 for her freedom?

And if Arithon can sing into Lirenda's crystal and (possibly clear it) I'm sure all he needs to do is get close enough to both, hum, and they'll be cleared and spirits freed? :smiley: Although… that might mean a lot of the Koriani women disintegrate… maybe not…

I just can't WAIT…

originally posted by neil

The Skyron crystal was in use for oaths since the rebellion because the great waystone was "misplaced" at this time.

Selidie's spirit is still in her body I suspect but "pushed aside"(?) - according to the law of major balance maybe Seldie had already given over permission to Moriel to possess her anyway (F7 admit to having no freedom to help Selidie or more precisely to act against Moriel).

Arithon at this point hasn't grasped that Elaira can be "free" just by asking? He's surely getting to the point where he can appreciate this? I suspect that in Stormed Fortress, we'll see a "showdown" between Arithon and the Koriani…

Maybe Arithon and Elaira need to get married :wink: Lysaer's 2nd wife has some scope to get F7 help as seen in TK; maybe not quite at the same level and the F7 have hinted several times (I guess it can't be too easy or there'd be no story ;-).

If it served his purposes, Davien could have suggested already "Elaira, it's odd that you don't claim your freedom? I would says it's possible…perhaps not. Your choice, of course". I wonder whether it serves some fellowship plan to see Elaira still "tied in" to the koriani, knowing that she'll come to know Arithon best and that they can maybe remove a thorn in their side…

originally posted by Auna

Here's my take on why nobody just up and bonks Elaira on the head and says ASK FOR IT!

I honestly believe that the path she takes towards self awareness of her ability to ask is as important or more so than her eventual freedom. This is why F7 are very closed about offering information to anyone - they don't want to prematurely abort a path that might lead to better growth and self awareness in the long run.

It's like when you tell your significant other something and they don't believe you until they see it for themselves :stuck_out_tongue:

originally posted by Steve Redpath

It is one of the old condurums. If you full respect someones' free will you can only help when they ask. Elaira being told she could be free is not respecting her free will. Not once has she said she wants to be free of her oath. She has to come to understand that she has the right to change her mind. Once she does so then she can make a decision and only then.

originally posted by Blue

My $.02 on this…

Like Arithon, it is likely no one is TELLING Elaira because she is having to grow, too. I mean, how easy would it be for them to survive as a couple, were she to remain in a rut, far less mature, magickally or otherwise than Arithon?

One clumsy example I can think of is a fifty-ish friend of mine who was lamenting breaking up with his girlfriend. Someone joked that he needed to call one of those date/chat lines, and he said, no thanks, because he did NOT want to go through the b.s. of an immature woman years his junior looking for the security a father-like figure.

Now, were Arithon, who is becoming more mature and aware, as well as powerful, (illustrated in PG and TK) to hook up with a content-with-the-status-quo/in a rut Elaira, how long does anyone think it would last?

We can speculate that it is BECAUSE of Arithon's growth that Elaira is growing, too. He is not forcing her to grow, she is choosing to do so in order to understand him. He is a catalyst, much like spring sunshine encouraging a seed to grow. Morriel/Selidie's plotting against Arithon, the F7, and the Compact are FORCING Elaira to unappealing choices - way back when in GC, she was forced to choose between changing Fionn Areth's face to match Arithon's, or being rendered witless.

originally posted by juliana

I suspect Elaira knows it is possible to have her freedom restored, Remember she spent the better part of a year with Ath's adepts and has seen the awesome power of two of the F7. She will eventually figure things out as she embraces perceptions and truths that challenge her lifelong training. She was never the cookie cutter Koriani. I also think she would want her "freedom" to be gained independent of Arithon.

originally posted by starstorm

Juliana, I think you have it exactly right when you say that Elaira isn't "the cookie cutter Koriani." She just strikes me as much too smart to continue to be bound to them against her will when there's a way out (one it seems like she should have figured out already).
I tend to think that she knows subconsciously that she has a role to play that is more difficult–and ultimately more important–than if she simply asked the Fellowship to set her free.


originally posted by Auna

Actually, that's a good point because time and time again Elaira has put herself in the position she is in because she can blunt the effects of Morriel's schemes and trust in Arithon to get out of the mischief that does come his way.

originally posted by Neil

Yes, I read this last night. In TK, Elaira resolves to trust in Arithon's strength and to go along with the current Koriani plans in order to be a postion to at least temper the effects / be present and have an input.

originally posted by wolfhunter

Well, maybe there will be a time when Elaira does not need to ask a Fellowship sorcerer for help but is actually in a position to free herself - why do some people always think women need the help of some guy?
No, I think one day she will need to face a challenge and make a decision that will enable to free herself from the Koriani compact. So fair the Koriani order has all these reasons for being, but their own senior is actually acting against what the order stands for and against free will (Selidie & Lirenda).
I am all for Girl Power!!

originally posted by juliana

The reason Elaira would ask for Sorcerer intervention is because so far they seem to be the only ones with the knowledge and power to revoke her oath sealed in the skyron cyrstal. Now the prime could allow Elaira to go her own way freely, but this is a power struggle. Morriel/Seldie still invoke the order's tenets which is to relieve suffering. Despite the noble status of being accepted as an intiate trainee in the order, I doubt the higher eschelon were ever humble. Until the various human factions cease vying for power (unlikely- art imitating life?)mortals will have to rely on the F7, Ath's adepts to uphold their right to free will.

originally posted by motley

Arithon does know that the F7 can support a mortal's right to free will - the fire-scarred spinster in PG told him she was able to request to remain free of the Koriani Order.

I don't think it's important whether she does it herself, or asks the F7 to intervene on her behalf. Elaira's shown that she'll choose her path carefully - for what's best. If asking for their intervention is best, she'll do it. If finding a way to cleanse the stones is best, she'll do it. She herself realised, that PERSONAL INTEGRITY meant nothing, she could kill herself, but the price of that would be too high in terms of Arithon's survival. In the end, she chose to remain bound and temper the end game.

I really want her to be free (hence my enthusiasm at the start of this thread) but I also realise she'll strategise and make sure that her choice will cause as little harm as possible and free as many as possible.

originally posted by seljo

The reason Elaira hasn't asked anyone to free her from her oath is because she hasn't thought of it – her personality precludes her from thinking about it, yet. She gave Her Oath. Period. At this point in her life, she would never think of – Can Not think of - going back on her oath. Why would she ask someone to relieve her of her sworn oath; IT'S AN OATH. There's a reason that the term "OathBreaker" is meant to have a HUGE negative connotation. IT'S BAD/EVIL to break an oath - people whose reaction to adversity is to think 'how do I get out of this' and include oath-breaking in their options are generally weak people; Elaira is neither weak, bad, or Evil so at this point, even if someone told her she could get out of it, she wouldn't – in fact would probably be offended by the suggestion – for the simple fact that she swore an oath (how many times can I say Oath?).

So – having said that… swearing an oath on something false or where the underlying truths that led to the taking of the oath change – well then – IMHO, all bets are off. Elaira has to come to that point before she can even take the mental step to think about getting out of her oath let alone figuring out how to actually do it (F7, Arithon, or her own ingenuity).

originally posted by Ryan Gohl

Very well said Seljo. I completely agree with you.

Oaths should be binding, unless made under duress or under false premises.

originally posted by Andy

Yes, as a general proposition, oaths should be binding. But I think there are more complexities to consider. For example, some would say that the majority of oathtakers, children, lack the mental or legal capacity to grant their informed consent, i.e., they really don't understand the consequences of their actions. Is the question blurred even more if the beneficiary of the oath – here, the Koriathain – deceive or coerce the oathtaker. Or what if the beneficiary breaches trust in some material way. For example, the Koriathain are supposedly dedicated to relieving suffering, but have twisted their purpose (or been twisted by the Primes) over the course of 10,000 years. If the Prime materially betrays the altruistic principals of the order, is there not some argument that an initate would be justified in revoking her oath? Likewise, if Ath's immuatable law, which predates every oath, is seen an unsupplantable, and the Koriathain have in effect required initiates to give up something (perhaps, free will) which is unsurrenderable according to a higher power, is it really a crime to exercise such rights?

originally posted by Ryan

Hey Andy, I think what you are saying falls under the duress or false premises idea.

originally posted by Richard

I believe the reason Elaira hasn't asked anyone to free her from her oath is that she does not believe there is any way to release it. People having always been teaching her that there is no way to revoke it.

I believe she would revoke it if she knew it was possible. For Arithon if not for herself. Especially as she is very disillusioned by Koriathain ways.

originally posted by BILLEEBEE

Hi Ya
I haven't been on here for a very long time but came across this thread and had to reply. Better late than never i guess. :o)
Why can't Elaria free herself from her oath. The thing I have been musing on for a few years now is how are these two love birds ever going to get together with the threat of the waystone,order etc looming. Well didn't one of the F7 tell Elaria that her crystal's consciousness had accepted her spirit and chose her to be companion?? Well maybe that is the key to the lovers finding happiness without the orders interference? Could the crystal shield her in some way?! Who knows well only Janny does and that's why there are sooo may of us here. Later

originally posted by Laneth Shadow-Walker

Chiming in here a little late, I thought to add my thoughts on just why Elaira hasn't left the Koriathain, just yet.

If at all. Thinking over to Janny's other works;
The Cycle of Fire, To Ride Hell's Chasm & The Empire Trilogy, let's remember Janny's mind is amazing when it comes to political intrigue.

We have to remember that Elaira has been bound to Arithon's life cycle by Morriel, in accordance with her plan to use Elaira as leverage in her plot to capture Arithon. This Longevity brings about a completely different outlook to the world and life than any average "mortal" could comprehend, so when we think of Elaira wanting / needing to leave the Order, we are thinking that her life-span is limited (even in relation to our average 80-odd lives). She has almost 450 extra years on what she normally would have, or until Arithon dies.

Elaira has sworn to herself, both out of her love for him and for her private vow to blunt the corruption in her sacred order, that she would do all she could to help Arithon in surviving, for the good of Athera. She realised long ago his importance to the future of the world, her world.

Elaira isn't an average initiate - she has potential to go very far with her power, especially with her Crystal being (now) voluntarily bound to her. Though she is still tied to the Skryon Focus, there's an unspoken agreement between her and the inner echelon of the order that she be left mostly to her own devices. Neither side really knows the extent to how much power over the other they actually have, which is why the Order has set her as a key player in their plans time & again instead of removing her altogether, and why they never react overly badly to her transgressions against the order, whereas other initates would've been stripped bare much earlier on.

No, I believe Elaira has a much bigger purpose in Athera's future, and is tied to the return of the Paravians. Esp being 'chosen' by the Unicorn while she was in the care of Ath's Adepts.
Her place isn't set yet, but it is definately reserved.

Her freedom will be willingly given / taken when it comes time, and possibly by a faction that we don't actually expect it coming from.
I see Lysaer having a hand in it - a glimpse of the remaining Justice that's not tainted maybe?

originally posted by Laneth Shadow-Walker

Damn…I didn't mean to kill the thread…*cries*