Similar entities??

originally posted by Hunter

It seems to me that there are two entities on Athera which incorporate a myriad of maddened, insane entities bent on possession and destruction.

The first is clearly the Mistwraith - trapped but not quiescent in Rockfell and the rest on Marak.

The second is the Koriani Great Waystone which contains the maddened shades of failed Prime successors, and possibly the previous Primes. Oh, and one maddened iyat to go with the enslaved consciousness of the Waystone itself…

originally posted by Roisin

Trys I was just wondering if that last line qualifies as a spoiler?

originally posted by Trys

Thanks for catching that Roisin, the whole thread's been moved here.

originally posted by Hunter

Oops… sorry… forgot the spoiler!

originally posted by Dan Johnston

You know, the swirling leaden auras of those who use Necromancy reminded me forcefully of the Mistwraith.
Carrying on from that thought, what if a Necromancer manages to enslave every single living being on a planet? Then, what if he loses control of the enslaved souls and they are somehow made free?
Free wraiths anyone?

originally posted by Trys


Although I believe there's been a reference to a machine in relation to Marak.


originally posted by Mark Timmony


I believe you are correct Trys… certainly there has been reference to technology.

In SHIPS or WARHOST I believe the F7 discuss it in Althain Tower when Kharadmon returns from space being chased by free wraiths.

originally posted by Dan Johnston

I am rather curious about Marak…I hope we get to find out what created the Mistwraith before the end of the last book - and what Triathe is 'missing' that is bound up in the sheared off portions of himself in the contained Mistwraith in Rockfell…
*Crosses fingers and toes*

originally posted by skeoke (Unregistered Guest)

spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler (is that enough?)

I am finally ready to re-read. Took a step back to cleanse the palate, clear the mind, and come at the new Arithon from somewhere beside a straight re-read of the whole series. (In this case a jump from the Bourne series by Ludlum {I, too, am a victim of amnesia}, to The Count of Monte Cristo {I hope someday to stubble across a vast fortune - hopefully without the 14 years of solitary confinement as a prelude}.)

Okay, I forgot my point.

Oh yeah. It seems to me that the necromancers and the mistwraith somehow share a tie. Our boys are the mistwraith's bane, but when they could have been killed, easily, in Eterra way back when, they weren't. They were "merely" cursed to enmity. Of course, had they been killed the series would have been *much* shorter. The Curse can't just be Janny's way of *prolonging* the series, there will be a seamless reason for it. Having the necromancers suborn the boys sounds like a good theory. I'll check the theory again in five or so more books. *wink*

originally posted by Blue

Spoiler alert
Spoilers ahoy!

I'd like to see ANY necromancer try with Arithon again, especially considering how he cleaned their clocks by claiming Grace as he did.

Of course, the Koriani are SUPPOSED to be wise, too, and they keep messing with him.

I think Arithon needs to get his idiot magnet depolarized. Really stupid people just won't leave him be!

The mind boggles, would an Ilitharis Guardian have stepped in to save him, had his tactic of claiming Grace not worked? The mind boggles further, how much faster would the necromancers have been immolated, had they faced off against an upset Paravian?

originally posted by Hunter

SPOILERS… ye have been warned…

Since when were the Koriani **supposed** to be wise? As Elaira wistfully explains on a several occassions, the Koriani order was founded on compassion and healing. Wisdom wasn't one of the founding tenets, as far as has been explained. Morriel/Selidie wants to capture/kill/restrain Arithon simply because she'd had a vision that Arithon would come to cause a break in Koriani succession and the loss of much of the Koriani heritage and information. It's survival not a lack of wisdom that drives Selidie.

I perceive very different interpretations on this board of the Grace that Arithon claimed to eradicate the Kralovir. Would an Ilitharis Paravian have stepped in to save him? Firstly, without Arithon requesting such an intervention, a Paravian would be unlikely to act outside of the Law of the Major Balance - the Fellowship themselves were also waiting for Arithon's appeal so *they* could act.

My reading of what Arithon invoked was his pure autonomy, first fully established with the Ilitharis Paravian in Kewar, through the prime vibration and the grand chord of Ath's creation. As the Paravians are a part, but certainly not the entirety, of that creation - I would think the powers Arithon invoked were far greater than perhaps what a single Paravian might have been able to do.

originally posted by thom (Unregistered Guest)

I have been reading the spoilers again even though i shouldn't have. You have talked about arithon claiming grace. He already has compassion and farsight. That three of the founding traits for the kings. Is is possible janny is setting him up to be a new kind of high king…over all the kingdoms??? What do you think?

originally posted by Hunter


I'm not sure Grace is a founding trait. If you haven't read Traitor's Knot, then this thread probably isn't making a lot of sense…

originally posted by Neil_ (Unregistered Guest)

Quote: "I would think the powers Arithon invoked were far greater than perhaps what a single Paravian might have been able to do."

I feel that the source of "power" that Arithon is learning to 'lean on' (right to autonomy of somethin like that) is something that a paravian would appreciate as naturally as breathing. They are hardwired to be connected? Just a guess…they're physical beings but with additional appreciation of the envronment. Something most humans are still missing out on.

I suspect also that the paravians would not "act" against humans, e.g. necromancers in the way that we would expect…it's not the paravians' problem whilst the compact is in place (F7 responsibility)

The compact seems to suggest that in brut power humankind - without fellowship checks and allowed technology - might be able to force the paravians off Athera through destruction of their natural habitat.

originally posted by Blue

Spoilers Ahoy!
Or maybe not.

I also seem to recall, Hunter, that Elaira was nervous whenever she was confronting Morriel, [as she did in SoM] because "Streetwise bravado could never hope to stand down Morriel's experience." [or something like that, SoM needs to be excavated again!]

The upshot I interpreted from that was that Morriel was considered wise. As we know, Selidie is just a cover Morriel is using, so presumably, Morriel should still be wise, even if she has to masquerade as another persona.

There are also numerous mentions of the use of the Waystone, that the current Prime Matriarch can tap into the wisdom and experience of past Primes, because their memories are stored in there.

There IS wisdom in the Koriani order, they just don't choose to use it.

As for a Paravian stepping forward to help Arithon, this passage struck me, since Janny made mention that Arithon received his redemption from the old guilt from a Paravian, that he claimed Grace. [I don't know how to put it better, forgive me].

Had it not worked, I think he could have easily said, "Oh *&%$ I need help!" and a Sorcerer or a Paravian could have easily answered that call.

Again, my interpretation was that a Paravian would likely have answered because of Janny's choice of language in that passage, and the reaction after he claimed Grace, when it is mentioned that the Unicorns [Riathans] looked up, startled, when they heard his call.

originally posted by Hunter

Spoilers… general babble post TK… whatever else is required here to keep flying things contented

Neil - I think you're saying much the same as I am. What Arithon has accessed is the grand mysteries… which the Paravians have continued to renew since their arrival to heal the marring by the great drakes. Paravians are kind of physical, I suspect rather similar to Davien's current state of physicality. If I understand correctly, Paravians are essentially sourced from the mysteries (it's also I think where they are now located - something rather similar to the sacred groves in Ath's Adepts hostels.) Did anyone else (apart from a Kiwi called Andrew) happen to notice when Ellaine went from Meth Isle to the hostel in Spire via the Paravian focus circle under Meth Isle??

Would Paravians "act" against humans? Good question. We've seen a few examples of what Paravians might do - the first was Asandir waking Caithwood and allowing it to defend itself. Sethvir allowing Athera to recognize the Great Waystone and refuse to be bound by it's directives. The Ilitharis Paravian appearing in brotherhood with Jieret to defend Jieret and the land (who were inseparable at that stage) from Lysaer's rank meddling. That's one element of this…
I don't think the Compact is binding on the Paravians - as in PG, they are free to act according to their laws. It's binding on the Fellowship and humanity.

I believe the Paravians will waste if the mysteries are allowed to fade - this will rob the Paravians of their life force/source and diminish them. However the Fellowship are allowed to act for this and they continue to do so… e.g. Caithwood.

Blue - make sure you don't confuse knowledge with wisdom! As I recall, the Great Waystone, which ordinarily is probably a perfectly agreeable stone, is particularly nasty because it's not been cleansed and has the stored memories of not only past primes (which makes you wonder whether prime succession is really about killing the old Prime, sucking her aura into the Great Waystone and the new Prime mastering the newly endowed Great Waystone) but also the insane, mewling shades of all those potential primes who have failed (which does give weight to my guess here). So I'm guessing that the information in the Great Waystone should be treated with supreme caution.

The Koriani have had a grudge against the Fellowship since they arrived - the Koriani wanted a say in how humanity would be ruled on Athera. The Fellowship, quite politely but pointedly said "No", so the Koriani have been trying to break that ever since… 5,500 years of this has warped them.

Arithon accessed the grand mysteries, which are governed by the Law of the Major Balance - which quite clearly does say that it's fundamental tenet is that no being should be used by another against its will. It is probably not too hard to argue that being subject the Kralovir is probably being used against one's will. We don't know what Arithon learnt from the black grimoires that Traithe forced him to read in Atwood but clearly asking either the Fellowship or a single Paravian (given Arithon didn't really call the Paravian into Kewar but gave the permission by which the Paravian could appear) didn't appear as Arithon's best choice. Remember Davien was helping him all the way as well… Davien could also have helped Arithon before the event. Although the Kralovir were some of the very reasons Davien was against the Compact and letting humanity arrive in the first place…

My reading of the unicorns' reaction was that they too were surprised that a human could have claimed such absolution from the grand mysteries. Such a call would have belled with multiple octaves and harmonics through the very grand mysteries the Paravians nurture and inhabit - it would be hard for them not to notice!

My opinion on this is that Arithon accessed the master power source, rather than asking a Paravian to do that for him. That's what startled and surprised the Paravians… someone other than them was doing this…

My $0.03… :smiley:

originally posted by Legion

"My opinion on this is that Arithon accessed the master power source, rather than asking a Paravian to do that for him. That's what startled and surprised the Paravians… someone other than them was doing this"

Dunno if I'm completely off the mark here but don't Ath's Adepts access the prime source as well as the paravians, I seem to remember in Perils Gate when Selidie was attempting to capture Davien using the waystone it was mentioned that Paravians and Ath's Adepts could breach Koriani wards at will and no discorporatae spirit, even of the fellowship should have been able to.

We're still not sure how Daviens managing to do what the other fellowship members cannot other than the comment made that he has evolved beyond prior limitations. Therefore don't know about him but doesn't it suggest that Ath's Adepts's "Unsullied connection" to the prime source is similar to how the paravians use power, if on a much smaller scale?

originally posted by John Parsons


Wisdom etc. etc.

Knowledge is the collection of facts, by definition true facts (and truth is another can of worms!!)

Discernment is the ability to see beyond the obvious to the underlying reasons for things being the way they are.

Understanding is the ability to connect knowledge together so as to see the complete picture

Wisdom is the sum of all those plus the ability to translate them into action

So by those definitions Morriel/Selidie has great knowledge, very little discernment, no understanding of the consequences of her actions and hence no wisdom at all

…which is to say nothing about her other fine qualities…!


originally posted by Leonie

I think the whole key is that simple word - "Grace", which can be interpreted in both simple and profound ways. gives a couple of pointers :

"A disposition to be generous or helpful; goodwill.
Mercy; clemency.
A favor rendered by one who need not do so; indulgence.
A temporary immunity or exemption; a reprieve. "


"Divine love and protection bestowed freely on people.
The state of being protected or sanctified by the favor of God.
An excellence or power granted by God. "

These come close to my interpretation of the word as used by Janny, but in the context of Athera, with the concepts of the prime vibration and of Ath Creator.

My interpretation of Arithon's use of "Grace" was that as a result of his passage through Kewar Tunnel, he understood that there is always redemption from guilt and wrongdoing - and that in the end, his geas of compassion had expanded his awareness into full comprehension of what this meant in terms of Athera's uniqueness. In his case, that meant not only self acceptance, but acceptance for him from Ath Creator (I think he went a step beyond needing a paravian "conduit" to the prime vibration) DESPITE the issues of his conscience and his acts.

I suspect that we've only begun to see the changes in Arithon's character - hence the issue of acceptance of Glendian's accusation in order to shield someone else from harm - his provision of Grace to Glendian and Kyrialt. Again, his complete acceptance of Jeynsa's behaviour - his willingness to wait and allow things to sort themselves in the fullness of time.

Don't know if I'm making much sense here, but I think grace is an interesting concept - and depends very much on the individual and to a certain extent of their own acceptance or recognition of the spirituality of humankind both in the current world and certainly in Janny's writing of this tale.


originally posted by Blue

Maybe Not

Leonie, you have the PERFECT articulation of what I wanted to say, and was too wiped out to put into words adequately.