Seventh Age sages..

originally posted by Hunter

Hi Janny,

The Prologue to "Curse of the Mistwraithe" spoke about the Seventh Age sages who mediated on the past to reveal what actually happened during the Wars of Light and Shadow.

Will we learn in the course of the narrative *why* these Sages felt they had to find out the truth of this period? Was there something specific in the Seventh Age that prompted this? I'm not asking what it is (that would be a spoiler) but whether we'll find out in due course…

I'm thinking the Sages didn't meditate on this for their own amusement…


originally posted by Eric Allen

I am new here but I have been long time lurker. I am also wondering about this question has been asked by Hunter. Please, may you answer this question, Janny Wurts?

originally posted by motley

Hunter - perhaps like Archeologists or Historians, they simply found out a few things didn't tally, and from simple curiosity, started to dig deeper?

naaaah… :smiley:

originally posted by Hunter

That would be waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too simple… and since when is that the case here?

I'm making an assumption that the Sages are a small group of the most learned / knowledgable on Athera. Not just bored University Students researching arcane knowledge and writing "Arithon lives" on walls…

Are the Sages researchers who think the Religion of Light seems too good to be true / relies too much on an omnipotent Saviour / has a few holes in it's story? This is the Seventh Age after all. Given the praise and myth attached already to Lysaer after only a decade or two in the Third Age, who knows what he will end up being said to have done by the Seventh Age? It could be said he formed the Universe, the Sun, Stars and so on by that stage.

Or are the Sages revolutionaries of their Age? Sick and tired of the lies and deceit of the Religion of Light, looking to throw off the yoke of dumbed down intelligence of said Religion?

I find it immensely encouraging that Arithon's name has at least survived to the Seventh Age. That his name survived on fragments on manuscript is rather intriguing. The Clans don't write anything down, the Korithain record it in their crystals, the Religion of Light is unlikely to record anything on manuscript claiming Arithon is a mystic and Saint. I doubt the Paravians would record anything on manuscript, which may leave the Fellowship. When they complete their purpose and move on (whatever that might mean, hopefully we find out), what will happen say to Davien's Library? Will it be bequeathed to someone "trustworthy"?

originally posted by Winter

On who would record anything positive about Arithon, he does have allies in towns. Feliron for one is now a storyteller with a penchant for speaking out in favor of Arithon and the clans. Other members of his spy network could have written things in secret that were discovered later.

Also, it could be that the religion Lysaer started has started to lose influence. They've passed several Ages, and each age is ushered in by major change, no? It's not just a set number of centuries, but suggests that things as significant as the Fellowship's arrival on Athera, and then humanity's happened 4 times. That number of major events could indicate a change in culture that would lead to a decline of Lysaer's religion. Plus, Arithon is still around and countering Lysaer's work, so it's possible that the religion of Light might not have converted the entire population. As long as s'Lornmein rule in Havish, that kingdom at least won't follow it. Maybe the Sages are based in Telmandir?

You Asked -

The Sages were looking for the specific reasons Why, with regard to the root of something that:

some had Lost
some had Forgotten
and for some, was Obscured.

Arithon's legacy in the Seventh Age is still everpresent, but the particulars of event that established its evolution, much less well understood.

originally posted by Eric Allen

"Arithion's legacy" seem that it is implied that Seventh Age is alot older than 500 yrs Arithion's lifespan. Is F7 still around in Seventh Age it just seem not to be if Sages are wondering about the past if so what happened to F7?

originally posted by Neil

Ooh ooh!!!

So…Arithon *will* leave a legacy :wink:

The sages *expected* the conflict to start on council stair of Etara. So the mistwraith perhaps seemed to be the "connection" between them historically? Not the fact that they were brothers born on Dascen Elur. Presumably the religion of light would no longer know this.

I guess if Arithon can find a way to drag humanity out of jeopardy and protect the planet once and for all, the F7 may be able to move on before 7th age?

Are the original royal lines / clan born talents now a "mystery".

Roll on stormed fortess!

originally posted by Hunter

Arithon's name means Fate Forger, he could hardly go away quietly methinks…

I find the use of the words 'Sage' (meaning a profoundly wise person - from and 'Etarra' in the same sentence highly amusing and a perfect oxymoron.

It would seem that the desires of the F7 to raze Etarra to the ground won't be achieved, at least in it's current form.

It would seem to make sense that the legacy is Arithon's rather than the F7s. After all, the Fellowship has told anyone who cared to listen, even Morriel who didn't, that their service was never to their own kind. The High Kings were those employed to deal with humanity, hence the legacy of those High Kings would be most remembered…

The start of SoM (I think) has a snippet of child's rhyme from early Fourth Age which talks about two princes, dark and fair, Cursed by the Mistwraith. So clearly well before the Seventh Age, Lysaer's cursedness (?) was generally public knowledge and he wasn't seen as the saviour then.

originally posted by motley

What always intrigued me, was that the Raven of Prophecy that helped Jieret, seemed to not be the same one that assisted Traithe, which was a he. The Raven of Prophecy was a SHE. I wonder if someone nudged something, in the future? Maybe THEY TOO want to restore the Paravians?

originally posted by Hunter

The exact gender of Raven, or indeed if Raven really has a gender and the gender we see is really situational and context based, is a conundrum. It is the same entity, it existed prior to the Age of Dragons and, if I remember correctly, before the beginning of time.

All of which makes Raven a rather powerful entity and inflames the cruelty of Desh-thiere's Curse - was Raven really in any danger from Lysaer's bolt in Etarra? Or did Arithon open himself to vulnerability trying to protect Raven who needed no such protection?

It's intriguing that humanity in the Seventh Age is trying to recover the fragments of what happened in the Third Age with the Lysaer and Arithon shindig. I would have thought that the decimation of humanity by the great weapon and subsequent fleeing to Athera might have been of more importance. Perhaps, pure postulation here, either Seventh Age Athera has already reconciled what drove the great devastation of humanity, or it's been completely forgotten, humanity is stuck on Athera for eternity…

originally posted by Neil

hmmm…1000+ years into the Fourth Age the rhyme seems to suggest a cold death for both of them…

nice idea about Etarra :wink:

The decimation of a culture based on fear who desecrate planets perhaps would be seen as just deserts in the fellowship/paravian paradigm…

I hope arithon plants the seeds to all humanity seeing outside time/space or renegotiates the compact / interactation with parvians.

Reconcilation of clan/town may be treating a symtom rather going to the cause…

originally posted by Neil

hmmm…1000+ years into the Fourth Age the rhyme seems to suggest a cold death for both of them…

nice idea about Etarra :wink:

The decimation of a culture based on fear who desecrate planets perhaps would be seen as just deserts in the fellowship/paravian paradigm…

I hope arithon plants the seeds to all humanity seeing outside time/space or renegotiates the compact / interactation with parvians.

Reconcilation of clan/town may be treating a symptom rather going to the cause…

originally posted by fhcbandmom

I've posed this question before, nobody wanted to comment back then…but I am persistent, so, one more time :slight_smile:
Does anyone attach any significance to the fact that Arithon is mentioned by name in the Prologue to CotMW and Lysear is not?

originally posted by Hunter

Nothing happens without intent in this series, so I think it is very significant…

It's possible "Lord of Light" is a term originally assigned to Lysaer that, as the religion of Light grew in the subsequent Ages following Lysaer's death, the legend of the Lord of Light grew, was distorted or re-interpreted by subsequent purveyors of the Religion of Light. i.e. What the "Lord of Light" might have been in the Seventh, may not bear a lot of similarity to Third Age Lysaer - except the knowledge that the Lord fought Arithon…

From Janny's comments above, Arithon left a legacy, Lysaer's legacy may have been the religion of Light, for which a careful examination of the foundations may not be accepted by the true faithful.

originally posted by Neil

If the lord of light really is "divinity incarnate" I suppose that the family relationship to Arithon is not something the religion would want the public to know or even to question.

I fear that if Lysaer gets his way the only talent left will be in his religion. Arithon wil be obliged to leave his legacy within the religion of light itself.

The facts are entangled together between legend and theology in the 7th age…

What benefits could the resolution of the mistwraith create? Or is it just a problem solved? One less hassle for the F7.

My bet is still that Davien / Arithon will plot a high risk path (that F5 do not agree on) for humanity to develop to the point where humanity can self-manage a healthy relationship with any given environment (at higher frequencies if necessary). What's the point if we return to the status quo of 500 years ago…Davien still believes it's an unstable solution.

If the paravians do come back in the meantime, townborn are going to experience a few casualties.

You Asked - do you really want this one answered out of context?

It sets forward the premise of the Entire Story…but the surprise is in the unfoldment…let's get there first. (grin)
The story will answer very nicely on its own.

originally posted by Winter

Here's a wild theory for you. What if the religion of Light is subverted (from Lysaer's original plan anyhow) and turned as a tool to protect the compact? Say as a means of having all the people on Athera believe in the compact as part of a worldwide religion.

The original set up was unstable because only the Clans really understood why the compact existed. Townborn only saw restrictions on development and profit. But if the townborn started to believe that the free wilds were sacred in the eyes of the Light, they'd be persuaded to protect them.

We know that Arithon is not so proud that he isn't afraid to tarnish his good name or reputation if lives can be spared. He wouldn't hesitate to allow the "Master of Shadow" to be associated with evil if it meant turning the new religion to a better purpose. Say if Lysaer is redeemed and puts his religion to protection of the compact and the returned Paravians. With all of Atheran humanity working to preserve the Paravians, that might free the Fellowship from that responsibility.

There was a theory that cows are sacred in Hinduism because they were/are valuable and religion was a method to keep the starving masses from poaching. I don't know if there's any basis to that, but it's true that today in some countries it's illegal to even injure a cow. There's also evidence that some American slave owners converted black slaves to Christianity in order to pacify them (turn the other cheek, etc). I'm not saying either religion developed entirely due to fiscal concerns, but there were probably a contributing factor among some.

originally posted by motley

Arithon is also 'fate's forger' and there is the precedent that some visions of the future can be altered - they are a probability and not a certainty. Is it possible in reverse?
I still think there's more to the Raven of Prophecy… :smiley:

As for the idea of retreat, even acceptance of the religion of Light - it's possible that Arithon could allow the 'persona' of The Master of Shadow die, (Fionn Areth's possible choice?) stripping Lysaer of support, which I'm sure Sulfin Evind would endorse, now that he knows the stakes?

If Lysaer's religion continues to gather talent, surely, as with Sulfin Evind, they'll eventually have to confront their own clan heritages, and find themselves acting to protect rather than destroy?

I can't imagine Arithon setting up something that would delude people even further - although… he did trick people into thinking that the priests were paedophiles in Etarra…?

originally posted by Matthew Hyde

Winter wrote

–There was a theory that cows are sacred in Hinduism because they were/are valuable and religion was a method to keep the starving masses from poaching--

There is another theory, having more creedence, that the Hindu Priests made the cow sacred because of a communicable disease. There is similar confluence with papuan natives not eating monkeys, as prions from the monkeys cross the blood-brain barrier in humans, as can BSE cross from cows to humans.
That is to say: the Priests - being the keepers of knowledge - saw that eating bovine products caused harm banned the eating of cows on religious terms.