Royal lines

originally posted by Kimberly Israel

Curious - where does it come in that Wisdom was lost? I think I missed that part. I remember the tower for Justice crumbling when someone was murdered…

Also, I thought it was just Arithon who was the last of his line, but that there were other s'Illesids on Dascen Elur?

originally posted by Hannah

I believe they were referring to the fact that the s'Ellestrion line was lost, and that line's geas was "Wisdom".

originally posted by Sarah

I seem to remember reading somewhere on this site, before the overhaul, that the last of the s'Ellestrion line died in the red desert. I can't find it now though, I probably don't know where to look.

originally posted by Adam John Bradbury

I dont know if this has been asked before anywhere, but I was just wondering if anyone had thought about why the Fo7 didnt send someone (Luhaine perhaps) to Dascen Elur to retrieve s'Ahelas and s'Illesid princes to return High Kingship to Shand and Tysan before everything got out of hand (ie Lysaer getting town backing across most of the continent).
In CotM the Fo7 say something along the lines that the best time to revive the High Kingship (of Rathain) was right after the mistwraith was defeated and the townborn were unbalanced by the return of sunlight.
So why didnt the Fo7 try to restore all 4 possible royal lines at this time?
Cheers Adam

originally posted by Miranda

Well, I might be wrong about this, but I think there are two reasons.

1) I don't know that the F7 are allowed to influence things happening on other worlds - and fetching Princes from them would most certainly fall into that category. Arithon and Lysaer were thrown out of Dascen Elur, remember, so it was the choice of those living in that world to do so.

2) As I recall - and, alack, I don't have my copy of CotM on me at the moment, so I can't check - the gate between the Red Desert and Dascen Elur was a one way affair - inoperative from the Desert side. One would think the F7 would be able to fix that little problem, but again, I'm not sure if they're allowed to use their power in other 'worlds', and perhaps they wouldn't want to reopen that gate even if they could, because of the threat of the wraiths. Dascen Elur, as it stands, shouldn't be in danger, but if the gates were active, then it would be, presumably.


originally posted by Trys


I think you are on the right track with number 2. If memory serves, the F7 sealed the West Gate so as to contain the Mistwraith. They may not have wanted to open it for fear that a) some of Desh-thiere might escape to the Red Desert world and/or b) their actions might prevent the West Gate Prophecy from coming true.

Then too, they may have cast strands and foreseen enough of the future to know that waiting was the best policy.


originally posted by Hunter

Trys - Miranda was talking about the Gate between Dascen Elur and the Red Desert, not the West Gate. The Gates on Paravia were directionally sealed but I don't recall the Gate between Dascen Elur and the Red Desert being sealed… it may have been to stop the Curse of Mearth but probably not - otherwise the Curse of Mearth would have gotten through the West Gate onto Athera…

originally posted by Trys


She also asked why the F7 didn't fetch princes from Dascen Elur.

I seem to remember that Arithon and Lysaer couldn't return through the gate to Dascen Elur.



The gate between Dascen Elur and the Red Desert only opened in one direction, toward the Red Desert. CotM is very clear on this.

Whether the F7 did this to prevent the Mistwraith or the Curse of Mearth becomes moot. It would have stopped the mages of Rauven from going through to the Red Desert and returning (though it does beg the question of whether any were curious enough to try) - I'm sure that it was mentioned in Curse that anyone who passed the gate never returned, impliying some had.

originally posted by Hunter

Hi Andrew,

I guess Lysaer's father would never have thought of banishing Arithon through the Gate if no one had gone through before then… I guess that they never returned would be a good indication the banishment was a permanent as could be…



You might want to shift Roisin's last post elsewhere on the board (it contains TK spoilers).

originally posted by Trys

Thanks Andrew.

originally posted by Miranda

So the Red Desert's probably strewn with the dehydrated corpses of Dascen Elurian mages… what a gruesome thought! Does anyone else ever wonder what's going on in Dascen Elur now? I don't suppose we'll ever know, but I would love to find out. Neither of our boys ever seem to think about it, which surprises me. Arithon doesn't need anything else to feel wretched over, of course, but one would've thought he'd be feeling utterly rotten about leaving Karthan in such a mess (though through no fault of his own). Does anyone remember how things got so messed up in Dascen Elur in the first place? Surely, given the qualities of the Royal lines they should have been able to keep things in order…perhaps they need the influence of the Paravians to keep their minds on the job…I think I'll have to re-read the beginning of CotM, because now I'm also wondering how it was that the fugitive princes that founded the Dascen Elurian royal families managed to establish rule over the indigenous peoples of Karthan etc.

Also - sorry, this is a somewhat eclectic post! - what do you all think about the potential effect of the 'shell narrative' on the central plot? That is, we're given some clues by it: clearly Athera's not going to fall apart completely, or there would be no mages in whatever age it is to go into trance and plumb the depths of time, so to speak - very good. No mention of the F7, who could presumably have cleared the question of what happened during the 500 years' war up nicely enough, so perhaps they've become defunct/unnecessary - fine. Also no mention of Paravians, though this is probably meaningless as why should there be? - alright. The implication, though, is that Lysaer wins, because he seems to have controlled history - very bad.

Though, of course, Janny could be using this to spring surprises on her finicky, second-guessing readers…so, fellow fans, what do you think? Are we MEANT to read anything into that little introduction? Or is it 'just' a narrative device? (Has this been covered elsewhere? If so, sorry…point me that way, please!)

Hi Miranda

I don't know if the Red Desert is stewn with the corpses of mages. At least Rauven seemed to maintain some knowledge of what was on the other side of the gate from when they were forced to flee from Mearth to Dascen Elur.

I don't think either prince is concerned about Dascen Elur now. Lysaer's too busy on Athera yo ever want to go back, and Arithon has no need. Karthan is safe and he is bloodbound to stay alive to face the Mistwraith, effectively tying him to Athera too.

I think Janny indicated once in chat that the princes originally lived in Mearth when they went through the West Gate into exile, for some time, until Davien's geas forced them to flee hurriedly to Dascen Elur. Perhaps only the weaker family members in some cases managed to flee (we know Melhalla lost its royal line on the Red Desert)…

I'm thinking that the royal lines really needed the F7 to keep them in line. If you had the threat of an F7 Sorcerer appearing if you didn't rule fairly under the Compact it might have made a difference. (Interesting thought: the kingdoms on Dascen Elur don't seem to have been bound by the Compact… and Rauven didn't choose to intervene until after Arithon's departure)

I don't really know what to say about yout "shell narrative" - it's possible the F7 failed and are gone by the Seventh Age. On the other hand, the Paravians might have succeeded, and subsequently have chosen to depart, also freeing the F7 from their responsibilities.

I gave up trying to second-guess Janny a long time ago :smiley: There's always something big and unexpected coming whenever she says "Now I've got you thinking just what I want you to be thinking."

originally posted by Miranda

The threat of an F7 sorcerer - hmm - how much of a threat is that to a determinedly wicked ruler? How much are they actually allowed to do? The worst they've done to Lysaer is effectively excommunicate him, isn't it?

originally posted by ssserpent

Back on topic, I have a question. What's the royal gift of the s'Ellestrion line?

s'Ahelas - farsight

s'Ffalenn - compassion/empathy

s'Ilessid - justice

s'Lornmein - temperance

s'Ellestrion - ?

Hannah mentionned at the start of the thread that it was wisdom, where did you find that out?

Do I see a short story coming?? mmmmm?

It's an idea I've been toying with - to write 5 short stories, showing how each of the royal lines survived (or not) the uprising…two are already written. (One's published and available).

Combined with a few other surprises, shorts from past snippets of history, and maybe a novella, bound into an Atheran Universe collection…

yes there are things on the back burner in the Wurts brain…stewing…more on this later…

Lots of times, your curious (and even repeat) questions stir the mix…because when the guesses are off or too simplistic, I get tempted to show what Really Happened - and then, you never know what will pop out, or where it may turn up.

originally posted by Blue

Okay, well, at least with me you're guaranteed a sale!

Hmmm, a short story collection of things Atheran… I'm ready whenever you are, Janny!


originally posted by Trys

Wisdom is identified as the 'gifted geas' in the glossary of the books under the s'Ellestrion topic.

originally posted by Hunter

I'm thinking it would be interesting to see how the s'Ffalenn and s'Ilessid heir interacted at the time of the rebellion… were the families of the two geas always in conflict or just a recent development while on Dascen Elur?

Justice and compassion/empathy wouldn't always be such good friends…