I didn't see any spoiler - all the references were to Curse of the Mistwraith proper. Nothing from TK, except that Louise had finished it. She nicely didn't mention anything that occurred in later volumes.
So, you're quite safe to read and respond if you haven't read the latest.
originally posted by Sarah
I think Leonie has hit on a major difference between Lysaer and Arithon. Throughout the series thus far (haven't got a hold of TK yet *sigh*) Lysaer consistently closes himself off from resposibility and emotion. His desire is to be loved by the masses not by his own family. Every time he is confronted by his actions he can either shift the resposibility on to some other scapegoat usually Arithon and the fellowship or he talks about how he sacrificed his happiness to see the spinner of darkness brought down.
Arithon OTOH, before Kewar, took all the resposibility and emotion onto himself believing that all those people died for him and keenly feeling each loss.
anyway that's my take being in the middle of PG reread.
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays all
Sarah
originally posted by Rurack
I'm an idiot sorry I mistook "removed wraith" I thought she meant "removed wraith's curse" Feel free to throw eggs at me 
Sorry Leonie
originally posted by Leonie
<lobs>
Oops, missed!!! No problems Rurack. Have a lovely Christmas all.
Leonie
originally posted by Matthew
I know in one of the threads i spawne i was pushing for people to take a second look at lysaer before judging him… as i can't remember which it is i'll post on here what i found when re-readig… people doing re-reads may have already stumbled accross the passage i'm quoting from Peril's Gate, apologies if you already know it (i think it's important that it comes from a reliable source, i hope it shows that lysaer doesnt just give in to the curse… he just plain isnt equipped to fight it):
'the grip of Desh-thiere's curse subjugated its victim with a force that cancelled all mercy. More than once, jieret had borne witness to horror: he had seen the last trace of humanity extinguished from arithon's eyes. Lysaer was all the more sorrowfully vulnerable, lacking the course of arduous self-dicipline Rauven's mages had instilled in his half brother. The s'Ilessid prince had no resource to grapple the twisted obsession that drove him.' etc
originally posted by DarthJazy
Matthew:
I noticed that and also in TK there was a passage when he even states. "so my brother comitted no crimes" or soemthing like that. Everytime Lysaer almost has a grasp on what is really going on the curse seems to sink it jaws in a bit more. The books have even shown that before arithon mastered the curse his choices were corupted by curse Lysaer would be doubly or triply so.
originally posted by Angus
You Lysaer fans are making some headway. I have always had sympathy for the character because of what he was. He is easy to hate for what he has become. Perhaps Janny is trying to teach us some compassion for those we cannot hope to understand?
I still believe, and will venture as far as prediction, that Lysaer will have much to do in Arc IV and V with regards to the final defeat of the Mistwraith. I also predict a redemption of sorts, but it won't be either pretty or happy.
These things never end well (kind of like Opera), after all, and a Hollywood ending would be disappointing. Janny wouldn't do that to us.
Hey, this story would make a good Opera. You'd have to condense it a bit, but the story is full of tragedy and unrequited love. It's perfect for a heart-wrenching musical adaptation to the operatic stage.
You up to it, Janny?
originally posted by Matthew
I wouldn't call myself a Lysaer fan as such, i really do like all the characters Arithon included … i know the prevailing feeling at one point seemed to be Lysaer was an arrogant, fanatical, murderous monster. So it seemed like someone should start doing some PR work for the guy
He's set himself up as a messiah, i wonder if it'll be a case of him redeeming himself only to be sacrificed by the very people he was supposed to champion i.e. jesus and the jews.
originally posted by Matthew
hmm what i meant was that i don't consider myself a Lysaer fan 'exclusively'
originally posted by Angus
Whoa, there big fella. A comparison between Lysaer and Jesus Christ??? Let's see, a curse-driven murderer versus the only blameless person in history, who taught the world to "pursue peace"? Sorry, don't see the parallel.
Besides, Christian theology teaches that Christ had to be sacrificed, in order to be the perfect, blameless sacrifice to carry the punishment for all human sin, for all time. According to biblical scripture, it wasn't the Jews who set Christ up, God did, and Jesus knew the whole time. Also, there were some guys around called the Romans, who actually did the deed, and a particular Roman named Pilate who refused to step up and do something brave, because he was afraid of civil unrest and getting fired (Judea was a grave yard for Roman careers). Hence the phrase "wash my hands of it", when someone denies or avoids responsibility.
All the above being said, there are some very cunning people around Lysaer who understand how the "Messiah Effect" works. It is definitely possible that those evil b#$%@*ds (I mean that in the most derogatory way possible, not the Arithon way) would set up their avatar to perpetuate their false faith. The faith of Light does, after all, still exist in the 7th age (CotMW).
Still wondering about an Opera though. Even the name "The Wars of Light and Shadow" is right up there with the likes of "The Ring of Nibelung" (I probably spelled that wrong). I prefer the Italian masters over Wagner, though. Wagner was way too heavy handed. Maybe Pucini?
Just musing.
originally posted by Trys
Angus,
I would suggest the Sanhedrin (sp?) knew a thing or two about the "Messiah Effect" also and since they couldn't control Jesus of Nazareth they were more than willing to sacrifice him… not realizing a dead martyr is worth at least a thousand live gods. 
Trys
originally posted by Matthew
Oh, I'm not saying there's a direct comparison, but there are quite afew superficial similarities.
I've never actually been to an opera =/ i suppose an epic of anykind could be turned into one though
Also i love how people call Lysaer a murderous b*^%$%d but i still say if you sit down and look at the figures Arithon has killed or been the mastermind behind many more deaths then Lysaer (we only let him get away with this becuase hes 'hunted' and our 'hero'). Lysaer sets up the pins and Arithon knocks them down
If arithon had just stayed at sea then there would be no target for him to have aimed at in the first place and the religion of light… vastmark etc wouldnt have happened. Its Arithon's compassion that drives him back to land, he usually discovers that a friend is in danger and throws himself into their defence. Ironic that compassion has lead to more and more deaths. I wonder if the curse has been manipulating his compassion to keep striking up conflict when on better sense he could stay away and let others intervene.
Directly Lysaer has killed few men, even taking into account him burning his own companies (which again is caused by arithon triggering the curse and i dont think should be counted).
Honestly, im not a rabid Lysaer fan
originally posted by Angus
Sorry, I still don't see any similarities between Jesus and Lysaer.
This being said, I am jsut in CotMW where Lysaer and Arithon have been struck by the curse. I do have sympathy for Lysaer. However, he is more murderous than Arithon. He pursues Arithon, who often, as you say, is motivated by compassion to act. Arithon could simply stay at sea and do nothing, but in the face of institutional oppression, murder, injustice (ironic, huh?), persecution, etc. and so on? How could he, unless he was the heartless bastard Lysaer thinks he is.
The key is that both of them suffer from the curse, and in the first books it was more apparent. Arithon has now mastered the curse, but Lysaer is a merderous bastard because of the curse. He wasn't one before.
However, note Janny's description of Lysaer after he blasted Arithon from the balcony in the square in Etarra:
"Clear-cut as a cameo, the prince's profile reflected the inborn nobility of his lineage; no shadow showed of the evil that had blighted life and honour. Unwitting pawn of ill circumstance, Lysaer had yet to waken and feel the change that disbarred him from royal inheritance."
The "unwitting pawn of ill circumstance" part seems to indicate that Lysaer's responsibility for being a murderous bastard is somewhat limited, despite the other passages I know are going to be flung at me.
I still say that Lysaer will be redeemed somehow, albeit without an "all's well that ends well" result.
As far as Opera is concerned, I don't know a lot either. I just though it was a neat idea, born out of my thought that the sroty, as far as the characters is concerned, will not end well. The opera thought actually comes from Bugs Bunny ("kill the wabbit!): "what do you expect from an Opera, a happy ending?!?"
Cheers.
originally posted by Hunter
Similarities:
Lysaer - a character from a fantasy fiction series who is purported to be divinity incarnate - or god birthed. The Religion he is alleged to have founded exists in the 7th Age, the origins and truths of which are lost in the mists of time, are coloured by the prejudices and opinions of subsequent zealots and fanatics over the ages and used as a powerful tool to subjugate and control the unenlightened masses.
Jesus - a character from a collection of fantasy fiction stories who is purported to be god birthed. The religion he is alleged to have founded exists two millennia later, the origins and truths of which are lost in the mists of time, are coloured by the prejudices and opinions of subsequent zealots and fanatics over the ages and used as a powerful tool to subjugate and control the unenlightened masses.
Seems pretty clear to me.
Lysaer just now has to say he is speaking Ath's will to complete the picture…
originally posted by Angus
Hunter:
I have replied to your last post by regular e-mail.
Angus.
originally posted by Jeffrey L Watson
Let us be careful in how we state our views so as not to offend others' belief systems. That said I would also ask that anyone who is offended by any post in this topic practice tolerance. I certainly do not want a religious war in this topic, or any other.
Thanks,
Jeff
originally posted by Matthew
Aye, i dont want any ill feeling going on. I'd rather withdraw my statement then upset anyone. I wasn't intending the comparison in a derogatory fashion.
originally posted by Angus
Matthew: No offence was meant, that is obvious, and none was taken. You used the word "superficial" with regard to similarities, which is an important distinction. I'm cool with what you said.
Perhaps we should start a new chat area off Janny's page, to deal with metaphysical issues, like comparative religion, and whether or not athiests have a belief system (they do believe in "nothing" after all). We could call it "What The…?!?" or "The Gods Must Be Crazy". Sorry for the trademark violation, Trys, but I couldn't resist.
Oh, Oh. How about a new area on this page, for ideas on the modern Opera: Wars of Light and Shadow. We could steal from both Wagner and Bugs Bunny with Lysaer's solo:
"Kill the Bastard! Kill the Bastard!"
Well, how 'bout it?
originally posted by Matthew
i can imagine a daffy and bugs moment with lysaer and arithon pushing the gun back and too … only bugs would throw himself infront of daffy at the last moment if he was arithon =/
whod be elmer?
originally posted by Matt Wright
Dakar might fit the bill as an Elmer Fudd-type character, yes?