originally posted by Ursula
Hi
Just another 2p worth, but yes I have a lot of sympathy for Lysaer and hope that maybe somehow through Kevor (or what his son becomes) he can eventually find some sort of redemption. In the maze Arithon realises the full, and to that point quite unrealised, scope of the effect the curse has had on him, what chance would Lysaer stand without his brother's immense natural abilities or trained skill? Lysaer is still a victim, even if his curse driven works are hideous.
Cheers Ursula
originally posted by Neil
For me the more I reread the more I see that Lysaer does have some freedom of "movement" and that the curse is not all controlling. He schemes "nasty" things himself quite easily without the help of mistwraith curse 
for example: Maenelle.
Just another ref to add. In "Ships", when Asandir is explaining to the s'Brydians why their culverin is proscribed, "home worlds" are mentioned. Some humans do seem to be left behind doomed to repeat the failure than come from a society based on fear etc. etc.
This passage - worth a reread - actually has a lot of information that I thought came only in GC when Asandir (again!) is explaining the "real" situation that humanity has on Athera…
originally posted by Neil
Ooh ooh I forgot to add…Asandir used the words "inconceivable centuries in the past" to describe the events that the F7 were involved with off Athera.
If the F7 have been around for 2 ages (say around 10000 years + a 18000 year reference in COTM refering to Ithamon(?) + the F7 arrive at start of second age anyway…) does "100-180" really amount to inconceivable? I can inmagine 200 sticks or brick for exemple…Or is it "10000" years+ which is inconceivable?
Izzy, therefore the Drakes could have dragged the F7 across time and space?
Do the F7 have any news of other humans on other planets? East/North gates are still "mysteries".
I still feel that culture of humanity on Athera does not seem to have 'developed' during the 3rd age. Any ability to understand the environment is still linked with clans. Maybe the necomancers understand/perceive more about Athera/"reality" than the Koriani?!? Leaving Athera seems to be the only way man is not going to pose a threat to Paravian survival.
In COTH glossary there is a reference to the 3rd age being the "age of man" (not sure?) but on the map we have "age of mistwraith"…
Going round in circles as usual, not now long to wait for my copy of Traitor's Knot.
originally posted by Rurack
I just can not find any sympathy for him at all. It was never there to begin with. Here is the way I tend to see things. He has always blamed the s'Ffalenn's for Arithon's birth. Like Arithon's father had stolen her away. When it was Lysear's father that beat the daylights out of her and that is why she left. His father had murderous rages why should the son be exempt? My pity dried up with the broken water skin outside of Mearth. He did not have to kill his Caithdein. He did that out of pure spite
Here is something else to think about Talera had the s'Ahelas farsight. Her father saw the birth of two brothers gifted with light and shadow thus the dowry. What did She see? if she saw anything other than revenge.
originally posted by Trys
quote:I would disagree on that one. I think it was more than spite. It was Lysaer's strict interpretation of Justice. She was, after all, leading attacks on caravans. These attacks would be considered, within the strictest sense of the law, to be illegal.He did not have to kill his Caithdein. He did that out of pure spite.
I believe that this is where Lysaer was coming from. He would need an equal dose of Compassion to see that the reasons for clan raids was simply clan survival… but then he couldn't know, at that point, just how important clan survival is.
Did I like the fact that he killed Maenelle? Absolutely not. I consider it to be one of the most reprehensible things that he has done. But my efforts to look through his eyes at that time leaves me a little room to pity him… but only a little.
Trys
originally posted by Blue
Lysaer seems to have something in common with my interpretation of Davien's actions, only he comes out opposite of Davien's motivations - again, this is according to MY interpretation of Davien's actions, past present, and what teeney, weeney hints Janny is giving us for the future. As a result, feel free to agree, disagree and take as big a pinch of salt as you need.
I stated, in another thread, that Davien foresaw some threat to the Paravians/Land, and acted to prevent it, even though he was technically breaking the law. Like Robin Hood robbing the rich and feeding the poor. Davien and Robin's actions, while technically illegal according to the LETTER of the law, served a much higher purpose, in preserving the SPIRIT of the law.
Lysaer, on the other hand, is bound to the LETTER of the law. If someone breaks that law, he or she should be punished. It does not matter, in his interpretation, that a Robin Hood-like figure is stealing from rich people to feed starving poor. The Robin Hood-like figure is breaking the LETTER of the law, and must be punished.
Rules lawyers (which reveals more years than I care to admit of D&D gaming) irritate me to no end.
originally posted by Izzy
quote:Izzy, therefore the Drakes could have dragged the F7 across time and space?
That's what I was implying.
Regards,
CJ
originally posted by R’is’n
quote:Talera had the s'Ahelas farsight
Just jogs something - we saw Arithon meet his father in the Kewar Tunnel - I wonder if he'll get a chance in the future to talk with his mother in spirit form or dream? I wonder what they would say to each other…
originally posted by Rurack
Alson Lysear has been so warped from original ideals that I really can't find sympathy. I've tried but I can't. In SoM he was willing to put himself in chains in a stance against slavey. But in his hatred he choose to enact slavery in less than three years. And set himself up as a god. That has very little to do with the curse but the simplicity of his ego explains that action.
I am almost positive that The F7 was dragged across time and space to fight the drakes. They did not even come of there own free will. The drakes bound them to aethera and the survival of the Pavarians.
originally posted by max
I rest my case. Why would someone who was against slavery all of a sudden see it as a solution. His mindset did 180* turn! But to quote Robin Hobb, "We are the sum of all we have done, but also all that has been done to us". I don't have sympathy for Lysaer, per se, but then I have no sympathy for Arithon either. I am sorry he suffered as I am sorry for the suffering of any creature who is in pain, physical spiritual or otherwise. And in that case Lysaer is also in pain, as are the clans. Only the townspeople don't seem that bad off or maybe just the wealthy ones. Who can judge another's pain? I see all kinds and all I can think of I have to alleviate it. [this is frustrating as I can't medicate Arithon or Lysaer. LOL] Anyway I guess I will have to see what happens in TK before I judge any further. smiling at ya.
originally posted by skeoke
/quote{Only the townspeople don't seem that bad off or maybe just the wealthy ones.}
You mean with their gout, and their fears, and their empty and honorless lives?
:oops, my bias is showing. I'll just tuck that back in:
originally posted by max
Very good point! But happiness is a perception and the gouty, back stabbing, lying, cheating, townies seem to think they are happy. Not one of them would change places with clans. I don't blame you for being biased. There is hardly a town character in that book that is very likable at all. The mayor of Narms and his wife, and Elaine and Kevor seemed likable. maybe? smiling at ya.
originally posted by R’is’n
I've just reread FP and starting on GC - I've noticed that each time Lysaer is presented with news that shocks him back to himself - there IS a moment where he's about to 'get it' and about to step beyond the limits of his anger/hatred - and then a BELIEF kicks in… like the scene where he's told about Talith's death - he starts to grieve… "My dear, my dear…" but then he is drawn back to excusing beliefs: '…if it were not for the machinations of the enemy, I would have never have strayed from your side.' (I think it's 'strayed' and not 'left', in which case, interesting choice of word, no?)
Each time he chooses duty over love. Love, he sees as selfish because his upbringing conditioned him to believe that a Prince serves his people at all costs, duty above his needs - which is the moment I think that the mistwraith corrupts him, and NOT before - it can't corrupt honest feeling, that's the moment he has free will.
So… sympathy? The sympathy Lysaer needs is a compassionate slap upside the head… Arithon's sword seems to do that…
Then again - that would only suspend Lysaer for a moment - in the presence of Paravian statues, the F7 the priests of Ath's Brotherhood he is almost there, and then turns away, believing he is being deluded into softening towards Arithon, and then supplements HIS delusions as the truth.
Nope, he has to face it all himself. And THAT I feel empathy for, and I think others here do too. No-one likes to face the truth. And he has a LOT of truth to face. If he were to accept the truth of Arithon's innocence - then his cause is dust - and having all those souls on his conscience - he can't face. Imagine the moment when you realise, you've led all those people down the wrong path? *shudder* That's going to be TERRIBLE to face.
Arithon did face it - he even was challenged to see whether he would once again give into people's needs over his own, and instead he sang, and broke the cycle.
Sorry if I'm rehashing stuff others have realised already - I'm beginning to feel like I have a better understanding of the story, and love sharing the enjoyment of that.
originally posted by R’is’n
Hmm… one has to ask - if Arithon sang, and therefore ended the patterns that were draining him - what would Lysaer do?
Does he have no other wish than to be a ruler? He's got nothing other than the duty ahead of him? Does he have fun doing anything? Were he to arrive at the point of forming himself out of chaos - WHAT WOULD HE CREATE?
Or does he really not have any imagination? Lirenda 'tries to imagine him a young boy with scraped knees, and failed utterly' (misquote)
He tried it a bit after coming through the worldsend gate - but just got caught up with feeling sorry for himself. He didn't share that stuggle to redefine himself with anyone else.
Does he ever make paper aeroplanes out of parchment and toss them out of Avenor's tower windows?
originally posted by R’is’n
Ok… paper birds… 
No aeroplanes on Athera… *cough* *embarassed.smile* I'll stop posting now… really…
originally posted by Hellcat
Rosin, Very well said. You captured my feelings about Lysaer completely.
I don't think Lysaer has any other dream/talent/desire than to be a ruler. He has always been bought up to be ruler, remeber how lots he was when he first got to Athera before he was told he was Prince of Tysan.
Hellcat
originally posted by R’is’n
Oh well - I'm going to post again. *grin*
Hellcat: regarding his pre-Tysan prince lost sense of direction, we're on the same page!
He MUST have been have played at something as a kid, a hobby, a passion for bugs, SOMEthing… can it have been squashed utterly? Does anyone recall Lysaer doing something by himself and enjoying it?
originally posted by Rurack
[quote]Does anyone recall Lysaer doing something by himself and enjoying it?[/quote]
Yeah Talith and there was the the other women back on Dascen Elur. He's a ladies man. sorry girls the only explination I can think of. He lived for that. But the that option was "taken" away from him. More like he walked away from it!
Also I truely belive his father squashed every happy thing out of his life and blamed it on s'Ffalenn. So what was left to him? The mantle of office and the games of statecraft. He defines his existance on that. he was raised to always be a prince. At all times. You could infer that his father was always testing him to see if andy of his mother's "bad blood" would show. Lysear admits in COTM that he is nothing without his kingdom. What stopped him from devolping other talents. He's obviously smart enough to learn almost anything. He either choose or was forced to only look at statcraft, the besting of one's enemies, as the only true happiness.
And no I can't blame the curse for his actions. He did not HAVE to raise these armies. You can not tell me that there is not rouge spellcasters on Athera that would teach him spell craft. Nope he decided to drag the armies and nations into this war. Why? Because that is the only thing he knows
Or the books would not have been as good otherwise
originally posted by Leonie
After having now finished TK and then gone back and read CotM, I was struck by how easily Lysaer allowed his developing morals to be crushed by the curse. In the early stages of possession he is effectively completely mindless, but after the F7 have removed the wraith, he makes conscious choices - choices to lie, and to completely give up trying to sort out his moral dilemmas.
We see him in CotM slowly starting to understand the schism between the clans and the townborn, but struggling every step of the way with trying to reconcile a just rule. He has no clear cut moral safepoint in his own character from which to reason, and his struggle for integrity is quite rending. When the curse strikes after the F7 remove the possessing wraith, he has a choice to tell the truth to Diegan about his mother - his choice however is to lie - to say she was raped and that Arithon is the result of this. From that moment, he simply chooses to give up his internal moral dilemma and allow the curse to expand his dormant hatred (more likely fear, I suspect) of Arithon to overcome him and simply follow the path of least resistance while allowing adulation by the masses.
It also seems he has a "need" for adulation. He could have tried to get rid of Arithon's shadows from anywhere, however he picked the coronation dais - the most public place he could find. Maybe I'm judging him too harshly here, but I suspect there's a lot to him he won't even admit to himself.
Enough from me again!
Leonie
originally posted by Rurack
Dont read above post
unless you have read TK there is a big spoiler in there… arg my insatiable curiosity gets me again