Lysaer and Dalianna having a child

originally posted by OR

Its a big if, would she want to do it with Lysaer's bouts of madness, and her thinking he might use it as a weapon. Exactly like his father and mother.

But if they did, would the gannley blood she has 'in full measure' result in enhancing that childs magical potential? Mingling with mages is how the half brothers got their powers and the maze told Arithon that his children with Elaira would become powerful mages.

Personally I hope Lysaer gets a daughter. That would be awesome. :smiley:

How would this one go down? Would Dalianna simply do it out of a sense of duty whilst not feeling anything deep for Lysaer. Or would she only love him when he's able to control the curse?

originally posted by Annette

spoilers, spoilers, spoilers, spoilers, spoilers…

I think she would love him even with his faults and curse, pretty hard not to. The problem seemed to have been Lysaer's reaction to Daliana upon seeing her, no doubt if she was determined to be part of his life he would fold. With Talith's looks and Sulfin's talent and strengths what chance would Lysaer have to resist her. I am looking forward to seeing how their first meeting goes once Daliana takes her oath. Asandir hinted she would would have an advantage being female, and he seemed to be hinting Lysaer was still vulnerable though love. If they do fall in love and end up having children, two would be nice, a girl and a boy, so at least if one is not interested in ruling they would get a choice. I doubt Daliana would have children if she did not love Lysaer. And I am not sure Lysaer would have children with anyone he did not love, not after what happened with Ellaine.

Certainly any children if they result would make better rulers with the gifts of truth seer, farsight and justice, no excuse for justice to be blind to the truth in the future. I doubt as a ruler they would choose to train as mages though. Lysaers father was right, mage powers and kingship do not go together, and Arithon seems to have proven that point.

Asandir seems to have warned this duty is unlikely to result in triumph or happiness, and could even risk her life, but the bit about possibly leading to a destiny cruel beyond all reprieve intrigues me the most. Sulfin had trouble reconciling his two conflicting oaths of loyalty, Enithen Tuer said he would eventually be forced to choose. Since Sulfin Evend, in the future is known as the Light's most nefarious heretic, he must have chosen to keep his oath as Caithdein so perhaps he publicly denounced Lysaer's religion as a fraud. What ever he did it worked, Lysaer is a mere Lord now, no longer known by the masses as the Divine Prince it seems. If Daliana does fall in love with Lysaer and is forced to choose, what happens if she chooses love over her oath to the land? Do we end up with two outcasts or does something even worse happen.

It was never said that Arithon and Elaira's children would all be mages, only that they would be gifted. With so many gifts they could end up just about anything, seems unlikely they would all choose to be trained as mages. They could be healers, might join Ath's adepts, could choose to heal or protect the land, could be prophets, sages or yes even mages. Or maybe some will just stay home and be happy doing something ordinary.

originally posted by OR

If they could get truth, justice (and the American way :smiley:) and farsight then why has the fellowship never considered just mingling the royal and cathedain lines. I mean the relationship is extremely personal so it could become quite intimate and if they were different genders then you know; the inevitable would happen. Does the fellowship even condone that, I mean Asander implies in Curse of the… that the mixing of s athlas and the other royal lines was dangerous and wouldn't have happened on Athera. Maybe the fellowship throws the book at her and says no.

Twins. Hmm. Ala Wishsong of Shannara. That would be pretty decent.

originally posted by Annette

The Royal lines did not mix, since their gifts were matched for each kingdom. Not sure it said anywhere it could not happen on Athera though, they fell in love how could the fellowship stop them? They might not allow them to rule though, so perhaps no one wanted to risk it, since the royal lines were struggling to survive anyway. Perhaps there was a clause there in the kingdom charters somewhere, thou shalt not mix blood with the royals in the next kingdom. The elemental powers of light and shadow would not have been allowed to developed on Athera we were told. I never really understood that, but perhaps it had something to do with the fellowship not interfering with mortal destinies. They seem to jump in and interfere when it chooses them to do so though. They granted the royal gifts which affected future generations for thousands of years, how is that different to granting elemental powers to as yet unborn children. Could it be they did not want to give humanity too much power? They certainly never went out of their way to train too many as mages. All those years and all that resulted was Dari being given foundational training to increase lines chances of survival, and then she went into exile.And they trained two spellbinders, one of which spends all his time at Meth Isle and one of which till recently wasted his talents and was still an apprentice.

They were not twins in Wishsong, Brin was older. :wink: Maybe Lysaer lasts long enough to father two seperate children, twins would be better though.

Since Lysaer is not sanctioned to rule, and is even outcast by the fellowship, and Daliana although a Caithdein is not steward for a kingdom, I do not see why the fellowship would say no. Asandir seems to be setting them up as a couple. The Paravians already allowed a royal line to be crossed with a Caithdeins line, and probably they had something to do with the royal heirs being exiled to Dascen Elur. If Paravia is to end up one kingdom, which it was under Paravian rule and probably will be again, perhaps a new combination of talents and gifts is needed for the new royal line, if they do even keep a monarchy.

originally posted by OR

Not sure, but its been three hundred years since Stormed Fortress if I read right on one thread. If thats the case Lysaers got another century, so hes going to outlast Daliana sadly; unless something happens. Plenty of time to have loads of children. Solo twins from Star Wars might have been a better example.Would it be too cliche for the twins to have a emphatic link if it did happen?

You read the Shannara books. I think my favourite was Wishstones (one before Wishsong), I thought the personal sacrifice at the end was very touching. Was like watching a train come at you, but still.

Also, you mentioned Lysaer just being a lord now. Has he went into hiding and we're going to possibly get a second coming of the light if he goes mad again; ie if Arithon gets back to Athera? Would he be Lord of Avenor still, assuming it was rebuilt? I read something on Amazon saying the Alliance had split into two relgious factions one in Tysan the other in Etarra/Rathain.I doubt such a schism could happen if their god was walking around; perhaps Lysaer is with a faction of townsmen in Tysan. Actually, he might think he wouldn't want to risk the temptation of power. Wouldn't it be ironic if Asander's joke about burning Etarra to the ground came true and it was Lysaer that did it? Whats the name of that other important city in tysan, they go to it in the first book when they just leave the gate; the one described as wearing its new town colours like a gaudy prostitute?

Its going be so great when that book comes out. :smiley:

originally posted by Annette

Avenor is long gone, we lost it in Stormed Fortress, and the fellowship indicated Lysaer would not be allowed to rebuild it again. Lysaer was made Lord Mayor of Etarra in Grand Conspiracy, Mayors unlike kings keep their position for life. It would seem with the changes Lysaer went through in Stormed Fortress, the removal of Arithon, and perhaps something Sulfin did, Lysaer managed to lead Ettara in a slightly different direction. While Tysan seems to have continued on the same path Lysaer's religion was originally going. We will have to wait and see if the True Sect still thinks Lysaer is some divine avatar, but even if not they would just find something or someone else to worship. Perhaps Lysaer has completely lost control of that faction of his religion, or maybe he tried to disown them.

I doubt very much Lysaer will see out his full 500 years, unless some miracle happens. In Destiny's Conflict he will probably be released from the curse, how much chance would Lysaer have against his own gifted geas of justice, once he realises the truth of what he has done? He was judge, jury and executioner for so many, even without the guilt of all those lives destroyed by the curse, what happens when Lysaer is freed and realises he was responsible for the death of his half brother? Ath's adept and the fellowship warned Lysaer where his actions would lead him, Arithon already knows about the execution he is going to have to face at some point in the future. Arithon struggled with that oath he swore to Asandir, in Fugitive Prince after Caolle's death if Arithon had been free to choose, he might have chosen to die. Lysaer finds himself in a similar situation, or possibly an even worse one how will he react? Love saved Arithon, will Lysaer have that chance? Even if Daliana loves him, would that be enough? The bit about the absence of love was somewhat ambiguous in the Adepts warning, knowing Janny that was deliberate.


"Beware, false prince," Sethvir interjected, neither wistful nor diffused, but earnest in a concern that terrified for its mildness. "The fears you smooth over in the trappings of moral platitudes will counterbalance nothing. Neither can they build. You will find the just fervor you raise can save no one. In the end, your own followers will dictate your actions. Their will shall rule yours with a needy finality that you will be powerless to gainsay. We can offer no help for you then."


Persist on your present path, and you shall gain your desires." As Lysaer's blue eyes widened, she pressed him, "Oh yes. Your half brother shall walk in the shadow you create. But not before you stand blackened enough to raise despair of a force sufficient to break him. Every mortal enclave on this continent shall fall as victim to your cause. Your memory shall be sealed in the archives by violence, for nothing in creation can stand or flourish in the absence of love. Let us see, in the hour that Arithon's blood stains your hands, whether conviction for your fellowman or overweening pride is your master."

There does seem to be a weighing of something, justice or perhaps conscience on the end there, and the only one who can probably decide is Lysaer himself. Just about everyone who could offer Lysaer redemption tried and was refused, Lysaer would not see the truth. Now knowing Janny and seeing the direction Lysaer was going in the last book, probably in the next two Lysaer becomes more like his old self, before the curse. And we start sympathising with Lysaer more as he struggles against the curse, and the consequences of his past actions. We get to that execution probably we will be an emotional wreck (just like in Peril's Gate) and we will be hoping both Princes can be saved.

originally posted by OR

Have you ever read Fulgrim in the horus heresy? When Fulgrim kills his brother primarch 'not for you noble suicide Fulgrim' said the daemon. Love could certainly save Lysaer and give him a reason to not take the easy way out like Fulgrim (fulgrim surrenders his soul to the daemon inside him so he doesnt have to live with his actions; it doesn't work because he trusts the daemon that made him do it in the first place).
I mean, with Lysaers mum leaving him (blamed himself because the gift was what they were fighting over), then Talith (in his warped mind), then Elliana (though he refused her any love)he really does want a woman in his life and would hate the idea of losing another because of his own actions.

Tysan stays fanatical and Etarra doesn't? iam quite surprised by that, the Etarrans always seemed most personally loyal and devoted to Lysaer. I mean if a pro town religion were to thrive anywhere then Etarra would be the place. They seemed to be ever present in his army, had the historic memory of him promising the whole city he would always protect them and I remember one description in the 4th book of a fanatical halberdier sharpening his weapon. Its quite ironic that Arithons kingdom were the most loyal to Lysaer. Then again it might be that they were always more loyal to Lysaer the man than Lysaer the messiah. I always loved how he won over the townsmen of Tysan, who in CotM were tossing machetes off his flag in taverns and he gets met at the border by a hundred head hunters. I always loved that ambiguity between the factions. Actually, that might be it, the townsmen decide ALL clan influence and those descended from clan blood must be purged (inc Sulfin Evinds descendents at that city)and logically; this includes Lysaer.What if the Alliance lays siege to Etarra! :o Madness! :wink:

originally posted by Annette

I thought Lysaer did a brilliant job uniting Ettara, Arithon could probably not have done as well. Certainly managing to get the townsmen of four kingdoms to work together showed what potential Lysaer would have had at working towards peace. I am sure the people of Ettara are still devoted to Lysaer, and he is still there to protect them, he is after all their Lord Mayor. Lysaers religion there is perhaps more like a religion than an armed mass of zealots out to conquer the world.

On the question of love saving Lysaer, I am suspicious of how Sulfin managed to achieve Lysaers fall from the lofty heights of Divine Prince. I think love must have had a part in that, although I cannot imagine why Sulfin would have forced the issue in a time when he had a chance for a peaceful life and eventual retirement. From Stormed Fortress we saw how he understood the effect Jieret's death had on Arithon. Did Sulfin perhaps use his own life as the gambit to sway Lysaer? Heretics are likely to have a bad end under the Light's law. Did Lysaer perhaps have to watch him die for telling the truth or admit the truth and save him. We are bound to find out in the next book, not long to wait now.

No I have not read Fulgrim in the horus heresy, strangely enough I do not read as much as I used to. But I am a Star Wars fan so familiar with the Solo twins Jacen and Jaina, although I have not yet read the later books. Elfstones was also my favourite of the Shannara books, although Terry Brooks seems to be losing me with his more recent prequel stories, I am still buying them though. I am about to start on the first book of Legends of Shannara, if I like it I will buy the next one.

On the question of Fulgrim, I think Lysaer already surrendered his soul to the demon inside him, so he would not have to feel the guilt of his actions. Now he wants it back. Love can only help him. I always thought Talith was set aside because she could have swayed Lysaer from his resolve to kill Arithon. Lysaer could not admit he was wrong at that point, so love was set aside.