Just a quick question

originally posted by Blue

I was re-reading PG for some clues as to which direction Janny MIGHT take when I stumbled across an interesting statement made during Arithon's ordeal in the Maze in Kewar.

Madreigh, the scout who helped defend Arithon and Jieret during the Battle in Strakewood, helped Arithon steady his next steps forward. He made a comment that made me sit up and take notice.

"For your efforts, a brother survived me."

Madreigh is described as an older man, as well as one of the top scouts of the Deshir clans. From what I gathered, when looking up the references in CotM, most of the adult survivors of Strakewood, [all men] were mostly the younger men, perhaps 20s-40s range.

The only other survivor close to Madreigh's age was Caolle.

Was Caolle Madreigh's brother?

In the big scheme of things, I know this probably does not matter, but I could not help but wonder.

originally posted by David Sinnett

I have just reread PG and somewhat confused. Hopefully someone out there can help me.

1. How can Lysaer resist the pull of the curse in close proximity of Arithon while Arithon stuggles with all of his protections and knowledge.

2. Why did not the use of shadow in the gilch with Lysaer in close proximity not set off the curse in Lysaer


originally posted by Jo

I also I have a couple of quick questions

1. When Lysaer is having his meeting at Althain tower the Ath Adept mentions Lysaer having Arithon's blood on his hands is that a vision, prophecy or just a statement? If that can be answered of course.

2. Another thing Lysaer is obviosuly aware he is cursed but when it is brought up in the meeting with the majors and King Eldairs caithdein (sorry about spellings) he denies it and also in other books aswell. Is he just lying to everyone or does he truely believe he is not cursed?

originally posted by Hunter

The quote from the Ath's Adept was a very telling one - basically she was telling Lysaer that if he continued down the path he was on, he would achieve his desired wish - spilling Arithon's blood. The question then posed to Lysaer was whether at that instant, his overriding reason was his pride rather than his concern for his fellow citizens.

Lysaer doesn't believe he's cursed simply because the Mistwraith took Lysaer's already deep seated prejudices and hatreds and simply fanned them a few times. Lysaer came from an environment of many generations of s'Ilessid attempts to exterminate s'Ffalenn and deep mistrust of sorcery. Very simple step for the Mistwraith to then twist that to it's use. The changes to Lysaer, and to Arithon to some extent, are core changes to them as individuals. For Lysaer, the changes aligned perfectly with his pre-conceived notions of what's right, what's justice and that extermination of Arithon is the righteous thing to do. Arithon, on the other hand, has a massive dose of compassion and his mage training for what is right and wrong - and the ongoing compulsion to kill Lysaer he knows is simply wrong. Hence he has to keep fighting it although he's since learnt to mitigate it's impact.

The question for me then becomes - the Curse of Desh-thiere would then seem to be a serious misalignment of aura and fundamental change in the make up of the individual (you'll recall Lysaer's strange behaviour with Diegan just before the Curse struck). This then becomes "forced learning" without rhyme or reason. i.e. Arithon is now programmed to hate Lysaer. His first instinct is always to kill, which must be manually overridden. But, if the Curse is forced learning, why cannot continual exposure or re-learning this behaviour ameliorate or remove the Curse entirely? e.g. like an arachnophobic who automatically runs from spiders conquering their fear by holding spiders. An example of 'unlearning' or 'learning' new behaviour.

Arithon in particular has undergone some major growth / changes in his unique aura of who he is during this series. But this "forced learning" has changed little. Either a wraith is still roaming around in Arithon, or a he's suffered permanent damage that cannot be repaired… similar to Traithe? Tellingly, the Fellowship didn't comb Arithon's aura after Etarra, who knows what is still there…

originally posted by Blue

Another random thought just occurred to me, exactly what titles would the younger siblings of a fully vested clan noble hold?

Specifically, we know that Bransian Teir's'Brydion is the Duke of Alestron. Are there any specific titles that Keldmar, Parrien and Mearn hold? Or would they just be referred to as "Lord such and such s'Brydion", since we know the Teir or Teiran prefix is definitely held by the holder of the title?

originally posted by Andy

That is an interesting question. I don't recall that the siblings (or children, or parents) of clan rulers are called anything other than their names. Mearn is just Mearn s'Brydion, or maybe "the s'Brydion's brother." I don't recall that Jieret's children were called anything but their names. Also, Dame Dawr (like "the Queen Mum")has no title of which I am aware.

originally posted by Jo


Just wondered if someone can clear something up for me. Re-reading FP and up to where Arithon has knifed Caolle - Lirenda is talking to Sulfin about it was the plan for Arithon to escape and there is mention of Mearn having a part to play in his downfall. Now the question is does Lirenda know that Mearn has changed sides? or can she see the future to what is happening in SF which I doubt otherwise she would have known all her other plottings would have failed. I know her plan did not go according to plan because of Caolle but really confused about what part Mearn was to play/played. Haven't finished the book yet but I'm sure I was confused the last time and never understood what she meant.

originally posted by Blue

Maybe we'll find out in Stormed Fortress, which, according to one of Janny's test readers, we had better be REALLY familiar with!

Janny herself has said that loose ends of this arc of the story will be tied up with SF.

originally posted by Susan C


Lirenda's knowledge came from viewing Morriel's grand conjury. Morriel had strung so many things together including Arithon's flight, running into Mearn who gave them warning, etc. If Arithon had not entered the Grimward but escaped to his sloop as Morriel had planned, Lirenda was supposed to have the area under a blockade using Lysaer's ship. But because she changed the plan by allowing Caolle to live he was able to capture her and retake ships.

Morriel used major scrying and then laid out the intricate pattern setting everything into motion. Her conjury caused people to act in certain ways at certain times. When Lirenda was called to the Chapter house by senior sisters, she chose to breach Morriel's wards. She had to trace the pattern carefully and she saw everything Morriel did. She found Morriel unconscious and one initiate dead. She then left to finish Morriel's grand plan. Morriel anticipated Lirenda doing this and going to Riverton, but Morriel did not see Lirenda saving Caolle.

originally posted by Paul Hammond

"Lirenda is talking to Sulfin about it was the plan for Arithon to escape and there is mention of Mearn having a part to play in his downfall"

I haven't got a very clear memory of any one thing that Mearn did that formed part of the tapestry Morriel wove to trap Arithon - at the time, I think I explained Mearn's "part" to myself as being to go off and warn the clans about the attempt on Arithon - i recall something when Morriel was casting her major spell about "dire pieces of news coming to Arithon at just the right time to push him where she wanted him to go" - I just thought of Mearn's messages that would get through to Arithon being part of Morriel's devious work.


originally posted by Susan C


When Dakar has Arithon loaded in the cart and unconscious right after fleeing Riverton he runs into Mearn who gives him warning that it is a Koriani trap and that Lysaer's fleet was at Corith. This was part of Morriel's plan. She didn't want Arithon captured by anyone except the Koriani. That is why Lirenda had sent the ship she was on and a few others to intercept Arithon's sloop. If Caolle had died instead of lived, Lirenda would have been in place to snag him when he finally left in the Talliarthe. Mearn was just one of the pieces she used by making sure he received information to pass on. Her plan was to keep Arithon out of any hands but hers (the Koriani with Lirenda). Morriel's plan was like a huge dominoes game. As each piece falls it hits another and so on.

originally posted by Jo

Something has been bothering me for a while. Arithon does not want to be King hates being called his Grace or Liege but in FP he does say that Fionn is one of his subjects, the townsmen who went after him in Jaelot were traitors etc seems a bit hypocritical am I being too harsh?

originally posted by Neil

I think that Arithon is willing to be responsible w.r.t. Rathain where necessary (and Athera also!).

He is a sanctioned prince (not that there are any other s'falenns floating about…). And he knows the paravians are out there.

I think Arithon will accept kingship but Davien's meddling may stop it being possible…does the Rathain population have a say? Presumably the townborn can topple a kingship at will if the F7 are busy elsewhere?

I'm still not sure how Eldir was able to become king with so little "trouble"?

originally posted by HJ

I think his s'Ffalenn conscience dictates (especially given the circumstances and the fact that he is the last of his bloodline) that he has a duty to perform.

And perform it he will to his last breath.


I'm loving my re-read! Just in the last third of GC - Asandir's just escaped Morriel's trap when he was trying to do the lane transfer to Jaelot to rescue Fionn Areth.

I love these books!!!

originally posted by Jo

I'm not convinced Davien will meddle if Arithon does accept kingship.


As in the maze Davien acknowledges Arithon as being worthy of being a true King. I think Davien is misunderstood, he says the rebellion is his version of Arithon's havens. Wasn't Arithon trying to avert a war? My thought is that Arithon does accept his kingship but doesn't become king if that makes sense. If the F7 is restored could he abdicate?

originally posted by Neil

Maybe without a king humans have no remit to inhabit a kingdom. Cathdeinen don't seem be in a position to take the "reigns" so to speak. Maybe the F7 regret the royal oaths and would not repeat the decision given the choice? Were the kingships a mistake?

originally posted by motley

Elaira said of the possible daughter: "…ours. Not the F7's… not Morriel's… ours!" I think this indicates that Arithon understands his position, does not agree with it, will not knowingly commit his children to it, but will use the power vested to attempt to restore the peace. I suspect Davien used Arithon's drive for peace to wipe out the Kralorvir. (I think that the Paravians left due to the dark cults increasing influx of dark energy onto Athera's magnetics.) Arithon was clearly devastated by Davien's play, just before he was left at Sanpashir.

If they get rid of the cults, and make peace, there's still the mistwraithe, the wraiths, and the Drake's charge to solve… how much can one man do?