I'm a Newbie (Poss Spoilers?)

originally posted by Matthew Rogers

Apologies if im posting in the wrong section, new to this :smiley: just a couple of musings…

1)"Davien shall hear no reason, nor bow to the Law of the Major Balance; neither shall the Fellowship be restored to seven until the black rose grows in the wilds of Daon Ramon Barrens."

Someone else quoted this in the forum and i acknowledge it may not be exactly accurate… but it got me thinking. Are Dakar's prophecies literal or can they be metaphorical?

If he's not talking about a literal plant is it possible that this refers to a person i.e. arithon's power growing… or a child of his being concieved when he accepts kingship and then growing up?

Certainly for Arithon having a child who could take up the burden of king/queenship(in a future where peace is a possiblity)would ease his overburdened list of jobs. he's going to live for 500 years, i doubt he'd want to spend it all ruling if an equally suitable successor was available…

Also because Ms Wurts doesnt plod along in the same mold and we are constantly hearing about the previous high 'kings' im assuming that a female ruler, who isnt twisted with power like the prime matriach, is going to make an appearence.

2) Why were the traits split and exaggerated in each line so only one was predominate? Arithon has shown that two can be successfully be integrated without the person succumbing to selfimolation. and i was never a fan of plain justice, isnt there a saying 'justice is blind'? Justice without compassion is hard and unyielding.

3) how were the seperate lines kept pure… wouldnt it stifle freewill to have arranged marriages?

originally posted by Blue

Hi Matthew!

We tend to wander all over the place with musings and speculations, so no worries.

As to the Black Rose, Dakar and the rest of the Fellowship are being coy, so it is open to speculation that the "Rose" in question could either be a physical flower, or possibly even a child of Arithon's. Hmm, never gave it thought that the Black Rose could be the growing of Arithon's own power - the Centaur Guardian's statement in Kewar Tunnel, in Peril's Gate, should have been a clue… thanks for catching that one, Matthew.

There has never been a gender prejudice in the high kingships, so there have been High Queens within the kingdoms. In fact, the royal family lines of Shand and Melhalla seem to have been founded by women, and the Shandian royal line's last member on Athera was Princess Dari s'Ahelas, Arithon and Lysaer's ancestor.

You're right about Janny rejecting the typical fantasy mode - I for one got tired of the old cliche that "Male = bad" "Female = good" in most of the fantasy stories I have read. I just never saw any so mean as the Koriani, whom one new member, Angus, referred to as the Twisted Sisters.

As for a female ruler, who knows? Aside from Janny, that is.

The traits were split amongst the family lines because those are the traits that were predominant in each of the founders - i.e. Torbrand s'Ffalenn was noted for Compassion, Halduin s'Ilessid was noted for Justice, Bwin Evoc S'Lornmein was noted for Temperance, (these are the male founders of the royal lines, we don't know the names of the founders of s'Ellestrion or s'Ahelas, both of whom were women).

I think the traits were grafted by geas (and permission of the line founders) onto the lines so that those traits would remain in each of the royal lines. They would NOT have been, had they been unbalanced, and each of the founders of the royal lines were extraordinary individuals.

The F7 had NO CLUE that the Mistwraith was a multitude of beings until it attacked Arithon and Lysaer at Ithamon, and it was during that attack that Lysaer's gift of Justice was twisted into what it is today - a perversion of justice that is harsh, judgmental and unforgiving. Had they known this, they would have guarded Lysaer and Arithon far more carefully.

As to the seperate lines, they pretty much chose to marry those of like line - the clansfolk would marry clansfolk, but there was no penalty if they happened to marry and have children with townsfolk.

The surest test of the heritage, whether or not the clan talents survived an "outbreeding" was to subject the person to live contact with the Paravians. I wonder how much it distressed the Paravians if the challenger was not up to the test, and went mad in their presence?

There did not seem to be arranged marriages, because that would have been against free will, an important part of the Law of Major Balance.

There's a great little explanation in the Appendix of the US Hardcover Traitor's Knot concerning the purity of royal lines. In a less eloquent summary, the royal gift flows like water through all available descendents, so purity of line isn't too important. Some descendents will show it more strongly than others, which is why the Fellowship must choose a particular heir rather than having a "next of kin" type of succession. When only one descendent is available (like Arithon), the gift portrays itself 100% in that person.

originally posted by Matthew Rogers

Thanks for the warm welcome and quick replies :smiley:

I carried on flicking through the website after i posted, incase any of my questions had been asked before and sure enough I found a whole passage explaining. Unfortuanely my sons were up to mischief and i just managed to skim through it before i was called away =P typically ive not been able to find it since as id like to thank both you and whoever that person was for the explanation as ive never owned a hardback copy before and cant recall the explanation in a softback :frowning_face: curse my lack of funding

The Appendix comes straight from the author's pen :smiley: It contains:

Blood Heritage of the Royal Families
Succession of Crown Candidates and Caithdeinen
Particulars of Clan Heritage
The Designate Free Wilds, and Execution of the Compact
and a Timeline of Events To Date

I've just received the copy edit of the full manuscript for Stormed Fortress, and with any luck, the new book will contain that appendix for the benefit of those in the UK and Down Under.

Hi and welcome to Matthew! Your post is highly appropriate, and nicely polite which is appreciated too. :smiley:

originally posted by Angus

Welocme Matthew. I am no longer the newbie!

Your insight into Dakar's Black Rose prophecy is intriguing. A flower, or a raven-haired daughter of Arithon s'Ffalenn reared in the wilds of Daon Ramon? If she is actually named Rose, that would be a bit much. What about the Paravian word for rose? Either way, I think someone's got to unstop the Severnir, so that the rose (flower or girl) can bloom.

On the point of restoring the Fellowship to Seven, that obviously involves Davien "hearing reason" and bowing to the Law of the Major Balance. Obviously Ciladis must awake and come back. What about Traithe? He has not been whole since sealing the South Gate, due to his burning part of himself away in order to avoid possession by Desh-Thiere. Won't he have to be restored as well? Otherwise, the Fellowship will be at about 6 1/2, not 7.

Great news on the new appendix!

Six months, eleven days to go…

originally posted by Matthew Rogers

I could be way off base… but the prophecy has been left a little vague on that point as i understand it, no names are mentioned so it's not safe to assume it refers specifically to the fellowship becoming 7 again through davien rejoining and ciladis reappearing.

It was mentioned by Ms Wurts somewhere on the forum that ciladris had changed, originally he was one colour but now he is signified by two indicating this change… is it possible that the change will lead to an altered role?.

i STILL havent had a chance to check out this new cover artwork… but if a dragon is returning for some reason then all bets are off. When the call was made the seven fitted the criteria, or became the right people for the job so to speak… in a changing world maybe the fellowship of the seven (as it stands)isnt up to the task of ensuring paravian survival on their own.

This is all speculation though and in all honesty i like the seven as they are… despite (or maybe because of ) how sparse our information about them is :smiley:

originally posted by Angus

Well, we haven't even heard from Ciladis yet. There is a whole character to develope there, and Janny doesn't leave stuff like that dangling forever.

You are right, no names are mentioned, and the prophecy is broad. Maybe Dakar gets some of his 100 level courses done and graduates to Fellowship status? Sorry, Davien and Ciladis coming back seems way more likely. What about the Mirthlvain guardian, Varain (sp?)?

Who else could ascend to Fellowship status? Perhaps Arithon? Sometimes the plain meaning is the right one. After all, the best way to hide something is to put it in plain sight…

originally posted by Jo

I do not think that Arithon can become one of the F7.
****Spoiler spoiler****
I believe it was written in PG that he is too dangerous (not exact words but my interpretation) I believe that he would help humanity and not the land I think that was what Davien was getting at when discussing the matter with Arithon near the end of the book. Could be wrong. The F7 however will put the land before humanity. Arithon is far too compassionate to do that. That's my opinion anyway probably interpreted this scene inaccuratley.

I have a feeling that The F7 Arithon thing may have been discussed elsewhere but haven't had time to check, any thoughts anyone

originally posted by Matthew Rogers

Arithon is constantly surprising people with his approach to problems so there's potential there.

Both spellbinders have their limitations it seems and theyve not progressed beyond the training given by the fellowship, as far as we know…

The questions to answer would be?

What gives the fellowship the strength they have? personal progression or the drakes binding?

Does everyone have the potential to become as 'powerful' as the fellowship members?

Is everyone created equal with the ability to reach the same level/strength/understanding if they can work past their personal flaws?

The koriathain method of replenishing members would seem to indicate that everyone doesnt have the same potential. But their viewpoint could be blurred.

The Seven have been together for ages… literally. Im sure after so long theyve built up a rapport that might be disrupted by someone new being introduced, no matter how good they are.

Is the drakes binding an actual BINDING, forcing them down a path of action but with room to maneuover?.. or did theymake an informed choice and decide to take up the drakes cause willingly?

Elaira can claim her freedom from the korithain through freewill, so if the fellowship were in the same position wouldnt they be able to claim the same freedom from the drake binding if it was restrictive?

Maybe the fellowship dont really exist at all… maybe theyre simply creations of the drakes, the personalities and appearances copied exact from the originals… so that when their purpose is complete they fade away like a dream…

I think im rambling a little bit and i can't remember what point i was trying to make when i started the post so i think ill end here.

originally posted by Angus


I am just starting my re-reads (2/3 through CotMW)now and won't hit PG until August (work full-time + 2 young kids + time with my wife (if any is left) = little time for reading).

Your take on Arithon seems right to me, plus, I don't see how our beloved story spinner could make that work. It would be too Hollywood(read: contrived).

Doesn't Davien care too much about humanity? Isn't the fact that he "cared too much" what drove him to his Betrayal?

I still can't see Dakar as a Fellowship Sorcerer, but note how his character has developed. The Mad Prophet, though still a letch and a drunkard, is changed, somehow matured (but man has he got a loooooong way to go!).

I still think the plainest meaning of the Prophecy is the likliest. Remember, the word used is "restored". But, only time, and Janny being hard at it for Arc IV and V, will tell.

originally posted by Matthew Rogers

I can see where you're coming from Jo, tho without a copy of PG i can't doublecheck like yourself on somestuff :frowning_face:… but I don't know if i can totally agree. Arithon seems to be well aware of the Law of Major Balance… i doubt he could put either the people or the land first… theyd equally recieve his compassionate regard. The people rely on the land for their survival… whether they are fully aware of this or not. He helped right the lane imbalance as much for the people suffering as for the land needing help. I think he wont take either 'side', he'll try to forge a path that will be beneficial to all… Athera gives its gifts freely, like no sickness, to those that respect the boundaries… humanity, it seems, is the one that needs to grow.

Another thought, wouldnt the continuing slaughter of thousands of lives upset the balance of things? couldn't this be the reason as much as anything else for why the paravians are still absent despite the mists being lifted?

originally posted by Matthew Rogers

Angus if memory serves me… Davien felt that humanity should have had their supplies replenished and been told to move on, he seems to have felt strongly about their plight but knew that trying to protect the paravians AND watch over and possibly teach humanity would lead to confict.

Maybe he believed that the compact as it was would stifle humanities growth through stagnation. There were sure to have been tensions already before the rebellion, its possible that he only speeded up a result that was going to happen anyway.

originally posted by Blue

I think at some point Janny said that the "restored to seven" bit in the Black Rose prophecy means THE Seven: Sethvir, Asandir, Traithe, Kharadmon, Luhaine, Ciladis and Davien.

Janny: Feel free to jump in and correct me if I am wrong!

Angus, you are QUITE right, Janny won't let us down with a Hollywoodesque type ending. Thus far, the lady has avoided being predictable. I wonder how much maniacal cackling Don hears whenever she reads these boards and our speculations. I myself have made predictions that were WILDLY off.

As for the return of the Paravians, they have decided to stay clear until the restoration of "true sunlight." All things considered, Desh-thiere, the Mistwraith, is imprisoned, it has not been totally defeated, i.e. the victims within the mists have not been fully redeemed and freed, and then there is Marak, which is chock full of victims who are free. The Paravians might be waiting on the F7 or SOMEONE, and the implications are strong that that someone is Arithon, to free those victims from their imprisonment, and allow them to seek the fullness of Ath's peace.

Matthew, I think you have hit upon something with the matter of the powers of the F7 - it is a combination of both the Drake Binding, AND personal growth.

In GC, Asandir is handling his personal defense against Morriel's direct assault on him, thinking back to the days when he was learning magic from "sly, temperamental old Drakes." Then, too, he is also reflecting upon Morriel's troubles, remembering when HE was at the bitter edge of hope, until he met the Paravians.

"How painful that final step into wisdom was," (paraphrase, I don't have the book in front of me.)

So it would be my guess that the Drakes trained the F7 sorcerers, but they learned, the hard way, to ascend above their original selves, and matured and grew into what they were today. Of course, they have been around for some 15,000 years, which is more than enough time to mature and become very, very wise.

Further proof is in PG, when Dakar is helping Luhaine and Kharadmon seal the breach at Rockfell. Kharadmon "possesses" Dakar, with Dakar's permission, of course, and Dakar is accessing Kharadmon's memories. He sees Kharadmon as he WAS, before becoming one of the F7, and "recognizes some seeds" of what Kharadmon was, in what he is today.

Gads, I hope I am making sense!

originally posted by DarthJazy

newbie here:

Thank you all for great speculation and janny is one of the few authors who keep in touch with her fans. thank you janny for that. for this reason and many other you are my second favorite wrighter.

I still think most are just not considering the potential of Lysaer ( I named my son after him). he is destructive but light is also life and i think you all will be surprised with what he can do if he gets his head out of his butt

originally posted by DarthJazy

newbie here:

Thank you all for great speculation and janny is one of the few authors who keep in touch with her fans. thank you janny for that. for this reason and many other you are my second favorite wrighter.

I still think most are just not considering the potential of Lysaer ( I named my son after him). he is destructive but light is also life and i think you all will be surprised with what he can do if he gets his head out of his butt

also for arithon to be a member of F7 wouldnt he first have to have a child? Cause otherwise he is the last that can be king for rethwailan. or am i mistaken?

Thank you again all and to janny

originally posted by Matthew Rogers

Totally making sense, i'm really enjoying being able to share my ideas with people and getting a response back, our youngest generally just smacks me with tigger and babbles about the cat when i ask him stuff.

originally posted by Matthew Rogers

Welcome DarthJazy :smiley:

The scope of Lysaer's power is incredible if it can mimic the sun and provide lifegiving properties for plants etc.

originally posted by Matthew Rogers

It's a little sad that the thing his mother didn't want him to be… is exactly what he has become. A weapon.