GAH, how did I not see...

originally posted by Hellcat

Spoiler for page 380 hardback edition, sub chapter: Three Questions. Don't read if you haven't got this far!

HOW did I not see the Bidear Knife could used to free Seldie?

HOW! All the pieces of the puzzle were there: Possession via dark spellcraft. The use of the knife previously on Lysaer. The Bidear opposition to the Korani , even the set of visions Morriel saw included the blood and bowl on a sunwheel altar speaking again of necromacy.

Janny, you blind sided me again. *bows*


Back to the book now

originally posted by Annette

You might be right Hellcat, but I would not go counting your knife victims before we get them. Perhaps the knife is going to be used to free someone else from Selidie/Morriels clutches. Janny does not always resolve things the most obvious way, and Morriel's fate might be of some significance to the story, so worked out years ago.

Arithon's current talents could probably free Selidie of possession, although I have doubts he would interfere with Morriel's fate. And I do not see Elaira taking Selidie captive in order to free her. Even if Selidie/Morriel took Elaira or Arithon captive would there be a chance to use the knife to free Selidie?

originally posted by Neil

Arithon when talking to Sulfin tells hims that the Biedar's interests and his collide (or something like that). The Biedar put their bizarre obligation to Arithon. Sulfin brought back the knife whilst Arithon was with Beidar no? I wonder whether the knife was offered and refused at that time?

Implication appears to be that Morriel should have litle trouble subduing Arithon in a straight context of force. So perhaps the Biedar knife would give him the edge…

originally posted by J Tal


Neil, doesn't it say that Seldie is murdering her own in Rathain which is under Prince Arithon's jurisdiction. (Can't remember who said it think one of the F7) and he will have to deal with it. May be he can invoke his royal authority and the knife will help take her soul or free Seldie completely. I think with all his memory/powers intact he could defeat her not sure if he could if she is wielding the waystone though as the f7 are worried about that.

originally posted by Annette

Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler.

The Biedar would not have offered Arithon the knife, since they know he would have refused to accept it, he made it pretty clear he was not interested. Also it would have been the wrong time to give the knife to Arithon, Selidie/Morriel would have got her hands on it and destroyed it.

Like the knife, Arithon's powers are used for protection, not to attack. So likely it is going to be Seledie/Morriels own power or actions that defeat her. Arithon might manipulate her into that situation, but I doubt he is going to be attacking her with anything, not even physical force.

originally posted by Annette

Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler.

sniff, sniff, hmmm…
Here is a possible clue as to how Selidie/Morriel might cause her own downfall. Besides the more obvious consequences of that promise on the waystone.


No talent steps afoul of their wards without getting viciously burned.
Initiate's Trial (Aust. trade paperback) pg 200

If Arithon is protected by the knife's warding properties, and Selidie/Morriel attacks him with any sort of dark spellcraft, maybe more than her hands will get burned? That phrase "viciously burned" just seemed to scream Selidie Prime's name there.

originally posted by Annette

And then perhaps in the heat of the moment, not being able to destroy Arithon directly, and being too angry and frightened to think straight, Selidie/Morriel tries to get to Arithon using Elaira.

originally posted by Sleo


But in the last triplet, Arithon just snips that ring of wards set up to trigger the curse in him again with Alithiel. So Alithiel has a lot of power. And I don't agree Morriel would win a battle of power with Arithon. He has a lot more power than he or any of us knows. I think he can defuse anything she sets up. When he was captive, he surrendered voluntarily.

(Message edited by admin on November 12, 2011)

originally posted by Sleo

Oh crappola! I forgot to do the spoiler thing in that last post!

originally posted by Trys

No problem. I fixed it for you. :smiley:


Regarding Morriel vs Arithon on the raw power front. A couple of thoughts. Firstly, I can't see either one of them resorting to that kind of a technique. Morriel uses plans within plans within plots within… well you get the idea. Arithon isn't likely to start a direct confrontation. His resources allow for other techniques. We saw what Alithiel did to Lysaer. Who knows what is possible if he were to engage his bardic talent in conjunction with Alithiel (if such a thing is possible).

BUT, if it were raw power. We saw what a fully vested monarch with the use of the crown jewels can do. Arithon is only vested with one element and we saw what he could do in a previous volume. To date, I can't think of anything Morriel has done on a par with those. Yes, she tried to close a volcanic rift using the Waystone but that resource isn't available to her… at least I wouldn't think it would be.

originally posted by Sleo

Thanx, Trys :smiley:

originally posted by Timothy

Spoiler spoiler spoiler

Actually, Morriel IS able to close volcanic rifts with the Waystone now, because the identity of the Waystone has shifted.

Now that we know what a terrible affect the Koriani Prime's manipulating of Athera has, I wonder how the F7 coped with them using it for so many thousands of years before they managed to sneak it away from them and imprint Athera with an awareness of the crystal.

originally posted by Annette


Perhaps the presence of the Paravians, five royal rulers as well as a full strength Fellowship with less responsibilities kept the earlier Koriani Primes from interfering in what was none of their business. Or maybe they were just not crazy enough to harm the planet they were living on.

originally posted by David Cornelson

The conflict which Janny has so kindly laid upon us readers is this:

1. No Paravians. They cannot return on their own and it's still unclear why. The Mystwraith in Fell's Peak have not been destroyed because the Fellowship needs Traithe restored and they hope Arithon can do that through the Mysteries. What is it about the Mystwraith that the Paravians were afraid of? Or was it the Mystwraith? Was it the Koriani and their crystal power?
2. Arithon cannot attack Seledie without hurting Elaira. Elaira cannot help Arithon without enslaving him (again).
3. Seledie has free reign to do whatever she wants as long as she is prime.
4. Elaira has somehow circumvented (unknowingly) the prime's will. This is a critical clue. There's a power within the free crystals of Athera that seem to help her and thwart all non-permissive powers. Why?
5. Dakar has grown up. But he's shackled by his fear of retribution from Arithon, love of Arithon, and respect for the Major Balance.
6. Lysaer is still a pawn, but imagine what happens if he's freed. His abilities are required to bring everyone back together. Arithon cannot do that on his own.

All of these things are in conflict with each other and there's a lot more.

I picture Janny with a list of conflicts and how to maintain them while creating new ones and resolving others. You'd think Arithon breaking his part of the curse would be the end of the story…clearly not.

All for the return of the Paravians, which is what we all want, which means Janny has succeeded. She's put the carrot out there and we're all following like her sheep.

originally posted by Annette


I am not sure Lysaer's brilliant ability to blind everyone to the truth is what is necessary to bring everyone back together, independence is better than being blind sheep. True, freed of the curse he might try, but would the people really be willing to give up their false beliefs so long as Lysaer was alive? It was not just mere statesmanship and his warm friendly personality that made Lysaer so persuasive, without the curse he might not be such a hit with his adoring fans. Lysaer disowned the True Sect and that did not seem to achieve brotherly love, peace or togetherness. As mayor of Etarra, while the curse was not active so much Lysaer did his best to uphold justice, did not seem to get rid of all the problems though. A signed, witness confession from Lysaer as to the truth of his actions might make some see they were lied to, but probably not even that would work. It might be easy to start a religion, not so easy to get rid of one, especially not when they can see their divine avatar walking around. And since Arithon is now condemned as the embodiment of evil, Lysaer has not precisely made it easy for him to fix things. Arithon is good at disguises though, maybe if he needs to interact with the townsmen he will just create a new identity. It is not like he has no experience at having to do that.

The Paravians seem to have no trouble returning when they want to, and Arithon seems to be getting better at finding them when he needs them. The Paravians just seem to be waiting for something else to happen other than the return of sunlight. Since mortal hands are meant to be the ones to fix the problem, maybe they are waiting for Arithon to banish the rest of the wraiths and free Lysaer. Or maybe they are waiting to see what Arithon decides he wants to do after that. Kingship (seems unlikely) the compact survives and the Paravians return. Arithon makes a new agreement, the sorcerers could be freed (assuming all the drake spawn are taken care of) the Paravians could maybe take a permanent holiday and humanity could get to evolve without the threat of extinction, or being killed or moonstruck by being exposed to mysteries too strong for them to endure. If the clans are freed of their need to be able to endure Paravian presence, maybe they would be willing mix their bloodlines with the towns people and everyone would end up more talented eventually. Rather than evolving as two seperate groups with different agendas.