Fellowship Sorcerers and initiate knowledge

originally posted by George

I was doing a re-read of Curse of the Mistwraith and a funny line popped out when I was reading the scene about Asandir, Kharadmon and Dakar at Rock Fell.

Dakar makes the observation that Asandir incanted in a language that had never been heard on Athera. Now, we know that the Fellowship of Seven were scientists in a former life (before they were called by the Drakes).

My question are as follows (and please help Janny, if it won't cause any spoilers):

Did the Fellowship of Seven have Initiate Awareness prior to their binding to the Drakes or was this something that they acquired as a result of the Drakes' intervention?

If the Initiate Awareness was something that was acquired through the Drakes, then how did Asandir come to acquire the knowledge of another language which was to be used for grand conjury?

If the questions seem obsure, please forgive me, but there is so little we know of the F7 that it really got me thinking.

originally posted by Jeff

That's an interesting observation.

That gets me to wondering about the difference in the passage of time (length of days & years) between worlds. How long is 10000 years on Athera compared with wherever the SEVEN came from?

Perhaps the language is a scientific jargon representing knowledge that was rendered useless by the physical laws specific to Athera… until Asandir perceived a particular application that applied to his then present circumstances.

Another possibility is a language that he had known distinct from the common language used by the SEVEN.

I wonder how far off I am in my guesses… :smiley:

originally posted by Neil

I think the fellowship were called for their destructive skills. They were perceived by the drakes as "masters of destruction"…I forget exactly? This is pretty "rich" coming from drakes that can dream new realities…but then the drakes had stopped true dreaming at that point for some reason? Despair? They lost their young to drakespawn(not sure?) attacks?

I believe the drakes taught the F7. There is a reflection by someone that the F7 would have been driven mad if they had met the paravians without the drake magic?

Whether this is the same as initiate awareness or the distinctions blur for non-humans. The F7 are no longer truly human I'd say…

Drakes came from athera but went to other planets it seems they might have learnt other languages? But I think that Moriel also is mentionned as using non-atheran language so I would guess an ancient human language not appropriate to the paravian paradigms? Entrapment in Rockfell is presumably a compromise between paravian law of major balance and drake decisions to save thenmselves and paravian culture. Certain drakespawn are or have been destroyed on principle?

I am not ignoring the questions set to me.

Trying to decide what would spoil, and what would not…and juggling the time to write, between a very hectic week.

Back soon - keep speculating!

originally posted by George

I think we know that there are various forms of initiate knowledge on Athera. So it's not as if that when humans came to Athera, they had no initiate knowledge, e.g Koriani, Biedar and the various necromancer cults.

We also know that Athera, because of its make-up is a prime planet for initiate awareness because of the "vibration" of the planet (or something like that, I read somewhere something written by Janny which alluded to this), thus why the Koriani stayed on Athera and did not go through the worldsend gates.

Human knowledge pre-dates Athera. One wonders at the age, extent and breadth of the human knoweldge. We know that Marak is an experiment gone wrong, where initiate awareness is tied to machinery. Is it possible that the F7 had initiate awareness prior to Athera and tried something similar to what had occurred on Marak?

originally posted by Technetus

Jeff: consider also that the expression we would use – "the 11th hour" – is said as "the ninth hour" on Athera.

The first two thoughts to my mind there are that either Athera has a twenty hour planetary rotation period… or Atheran time is metric. :smiley:

(Astronomy was never my focus, but it seems to me that a twenty hour day cycle doesn't necessarily mean the years are shorter or longer compared to ours, as the time it takes Athera to orbit its sun should determine the year length, independent of the orb spin speed…)

originally posted by Neil

i seem to recall Janny saying that Athera was slightly smaller but had a more dense core(?) than Earth.

Still it is only a story and a year of "time" helps to put a framework around changes that occur in the environment and to the people not to mention those characters that actually get to grow old :slight_smile:

originally posted by Benjamin James

i had always considered the F7 to have their powers before they were called to Athera. But being bound by the law of the major balance and their pact with the paravians obviously stops them from doing certain things that they ordinarily had done in the past (masters of destruction quote, hinting that they had used their power to the fullest of its potential for causing destruction). I shall have to re-read certain sections but the phrasing of some of the paragraphs hinting to the past of the f7 suggested to me that there magecraft predated their arrival on Athera. I shall have to check. A very interesting observation though. :smiley:

originally posted by Trys


You should read Janny's short story "Sundering Star" which was published in Under Cover of Darkness. It may shed some light on your musings.


originally posted by Benjamin James

Ordered it just now :smiley: Will read as soon as i get it!

originally posted by Benjamin James

My book still hasn't arrived yet!

A liitle thing I noticed just after reading Grand Conspiracy again. Was browsing through the glossary (As you do), and came across the entry for Cianor Sunlord and thought it have relevant pertinence to the discussion on whether the seven had initate awareness prior to arrival on Athera.

"…Crippled but alive, he was on hand at the arrival of the Fellowship of Seven. Healed by the Sorcerers; appointed Keeper of Records in 902"

What is hard to determine is the timescale involved with it all. As in, did the f7 heal him literally upon arrival on Athera? If so could this point to them having that ability prior to arriving?
Would love to hear your thoughts!

originally posted by Neil


Ah. But when was Cianor healed? Perhaps 901 or 902? Or does the semi-colon perhaps separate the healing and appointment by even centuries?

My feeling is that the F7 arrived as engineers/scientists, reliant on technology. The drakes gave them the teaching to be "effective" on Athera (i.e. "magic") and this was outside the safe limits or harmonic examples seen within paravian culture/paradigm where necessary. But whenever possible the F7 respect the paravian example except where paravian existence on Athera is threatened. The end justifying the means perhaps in drake opinion(?) The F7 themselves are "bound" to to this; not freewill. Just my guess although this goes against davien's chat to arithon where he is of the opinion where the end never justifies the means (the author's opinion also I wonder?)


originally posted by DarthJazy

From what i understand from the books F7 were masters of destruction with mostly science where science and magic become one. their knowledge of what we call science was so advanced adding magic or mastering magic to make them co exist would not be difficult. my two cents.

originally posted by Jeff

Without more information related to the great drakes' binding, it's hard to determine just how much control they had of their power at first.

Did they have interstellar travel time to adapt?

If they had a learning curve (as Sethvir did with the earthlink and wardship of Althain Tower), I speculate that Ciladis might have been the primary sorcerer involved in healing Cianor as that seems to be Ciladis' area of natural gift.

originally posted by Sleo

Interesting discussion. Can't wait to reread these books in prep for release of Initiate's Trial.

Re: healing of Cianor - healing is hardly a 'magical' property as the F7 as we know from Sundering Star were from a culture far advanced scientifically. Perhaps Cianor was healed using good old fashioned medicine? Just to throw a kink in things.

I think some of the questions about the drakes are answered in Ships when Arithon goes to visit the s'Bransians after the black powder episode. There's a very enlightening passage there about why the drakes called the F7 to Athera - something to do with those awful fire breathing birds whose name escapes me - the ones who nearly killed Kevor.

originally posted by Trys


originally posted by Jeff

As a followup from my post on Monday, June 13, 2011 - 11:13 am:

In Ships of Merior, in the chapter titled "Trust",
Asandir relates to the brothers s'Brydion that the Seven's "engine" was "plucked from its transit" through deep space
and the "drake's [sic] desperate need hurled it earthward" to the resulting Crater Lake.

That indicates a quick arrival.


Janny, in the quote noted above, is "drake's" a publishing typo from the first US edition?

Should it be "drakes' desperate need" or "drake's desperate need"?
I'm wondering if that's an important distinction.

As always, thank you.

originally posted by Jeff

Regarding Cianor's healing:
Perhaps I'm considering the Paravians' etheric characteristics out of balance with their semi-mortal physical beings.

I was thinking that Cianor (and perhaps others) may have needed emergency physical healing, but specialized to their etheric makeup, and allowing for overload on their arcane resources
[similar to backlash from tienelle scrying or Lysaer exercising his gift beyond a safe point].

The typo - drake's or drakes' - depends if it was a communal dreaming; or one dragon, appointed to DO the dreaming for the community that decided to create/spin this option into play - the usage may or may not be a typo…the conclave of Paravians and dragons that opted to DO something occurred at Corith, and was referenced at the opening of Fugitive Prince…

As for Cianor Sunlord and Cianor Moonlord, a careful combing of the glossaries SHOULD shed a little more light on this. Past that, we're into definite authorial duct tape territory.


The series will reveal, in due time.

originally posted by Jeff

I was just wondering if there might be a "not a word wasted" hidden meaning to ferret out. I had long assumed that the active dreaming was a combined effort by all of the great drakes involved.

Re-reading the reference in Fugitive Prince, I realized that I completely overlooked the presence and involvement of the Paravian races in the council at Corith. After 9 months of a detailed series re-read, I realize I'm still partly blinded by preconceived notions—and have more to discover.


The speculation about Cianor's healing by the Sorcerers was actually a follow-on from Sleo's post on June 13.
Of course, extra information from the 'Keeper of the Great Myster(ies)' would have been a nice side bonus.
No such luck!

Still, Janny, thanks for noting a distinction between Sunlord and Moonlord. That will keep me busy for a while.