originally posted by Devena Haggis

I'm new to this chat area, although I've been lurking for some time :-)and hoped some of you might be able to shed some light on a couple of questions I've had about Elaira for some time…

1. Why doesn't Elaira ask for Fellowship intervention to be released from her initiate's vow of service like Enithen Tuer did?

2. Does the uncleared crystal's preference to remain in Koriathain service have anything to do with the longevity binding augmented by the Fellowship.

Apologies if they seem basic questions…Any ideas? cheers Dev

originally posted by Laneth Shadow-Walker

I'm really hoping Hunter, Blue, Trys, SandTiger or even Janny come in here to answer this, but I think that if Janny answers these questions, she may give away future storyline…That said:


1. I don't think that Elaira knows, herself, that she can actually ask to be set free, nor does Arithon or anyone in the Clans.
The Biedar won't say it outright, even if they are the sworn enemies of the Koriani Order.

2. I wouldn't know.

I look forward to finding out more from more experienced Paravian Explorers…

originally posted by Blue

Okay, Laneth, you got me… :smiley:

1. Either Elaira does NOT know about asking the F7 for help in claiming her freedom - she might be "limited" enough in her perceptions to believe there is NO escape.

Somehow Enithen Tuer managed to gain her freedom, but that was either with some knowledge of a since-closed loophole in Koriani law/tradition OR she was cast out of the order before the "make witless" punishment was devised. Another possibility is that the rest of the Koriani (who would be aware of Enithen Tuer's former membership) might believe she has something important she could blackmail Morriel with - such as the secret that Morriel is also the Madam of a successful House of Ill Repute.

Or, MAYBE, Elaira does not WANT to ask for her freedom, because she wants to have an "in" with the Koriani to keep tabs on what they might be plotting against Arithon next. After all, if she WERE to gain her freedom, there is no way she might be given such interesting "assignments" or "confidences" by the Matriarch. She'd just be another Arithon ally targeted for destruction by the Koriani.

Too, there might be other benefits of being a member of the Koriani - after all, they have a pretty strong reputation to fall back upon not only as healers, but as enchantresses, which Elaira used TO THE HILT to protect Fionn Areth way back when in Grand Conspiracy. If Elaira had been free back then, she could NOT have called upon the respect of her order's reputation to back up her claims to be protecting a hapless lookalike.

2. As for what the crystal is up to, NO ONE knows, except for Our Miss Wurts, but we are free to speculate - more than half the fun of this chat area!

A) The crystal itself might be setting something up for Elaira to claim her eventual freedom. It could very easily be building upon the knowledge it has gained, from communicating with native Atheran stones, to conspire with its fellow enslaved crystals, to throw a serious monkey wrench into Koriani plans. After all, it is a "field crystal," meaning that it has been out and about, and the master crystals, the Skyron and the Great Waystone, could be compiling information to use against Morriel and the rest of the Koriani powers that be, but the time isn't ripe, for whatever reason.

B) The crystal is afraid of being alone, away from its "sister stones" in the order. Not being a native Athera stone, it might be afraid of being away from its "sisters" even if that does mean it has to remain enslaved.

C) The Adept brother who came to Elaira and kept her from cleansing the stone did so at Sethvir's request, since the removal of the Koriani longevity bindings would have revealed that the bindings over Elaira had been supplanted by F7 LotMB approved longevity bindings. The crystal might have realized this, and decided to remove itself from Elaira's presence, so she would not discover this either, and thus cause more trouble however inadvertantly.

D) The crystal (somehow!) knew what Ath's Adepts were likely to teach Elaira, and did not want to interfere in her education. If it were present, she would want to free it, and that might cause a serious backlash from the Koriani Seniors.

E) IF the crystal did know or understand what Elaira would learn in her time with the Adepts, it wanted her to come back to it as an enlightened person, and be able to greet her fully and with the love (I believe) it has for her. Elaira would understand the lesson the crystal was trying to teach her, and would take it with her when she got free (one way or another) from the Koriani.

F) The crystal knew of the supplanting of the forced longevity bindings, and grieved for its part in potentially harming Elaira IF it was discovered that those bindings were gone. The crystal might have, as the Fire Lady of Jaelot told Arithon, marked Elaira as a friend (or even more) and would have sacrificed its chance at freedom to protect Elaira.

G) Disapproving of the subtle trap Morriel laid on Elaira, and the weight of an Oath of Debt could have caused for Elaira to give in to the temptation to help Arithon, it decided to remove itself from being used so shamelessly. After all, Asandir (way back when in CotM) told Dakar that rocks have a great deal of respect for politeness. Dakar himself finally understood this when Kharadmon "borrowed" his body, and heard the anguish of Rockfell Peak, knowing it had "failed" to contain the Iyats and other nuisances. So, the crystal, IF it somehow adheres to the Atheran/F7 interpretation of things, might be doing this out of politeness, until things work out much better to rejoin Elaira.

Gads, I hope I haven't put anyone to sleep!

Janny, Trys, Hunter, Andrew - chime in if I missed anything!

Laneth, remember, you ASKED for it! ;^)

Devena - good questions and welcome to the board!

originally posted by Blue


Forgot to add the request for Sandtiger to put in HER chimes as well!

(Sorry Jana!)

originally posted by Hunter


Here are some of my thought for the original questions raised by Devena:

1. Why doesn't Elaira ask for Fellowship intervention to be released from her initiate's vow of service like Enithen Tuer did?
- It doesn't appear that Elaira is aware that option is available to her. Although she met Enithen Tuer early in Curse, Elaira's interest was Arithon and Lysaer, not Enithen.
- The Law of the Major Balance precludes the Fellowship, or Ath's Adepts, overtly mentioning it. They can obliquely do so but the request has to come from Elaira as a specific request, which doesn't appear to comprehend is an option.
- Stormed Fortress - gave some pointed information that the removal of Koriani strictures (being based on forced mastery) generally could not be done without scarring (which I take is residual damage).
- it's also possible that Elaira may wish to remain with the confines of the Koriani order to limit or completely negate what Morriel/Selidie is trying to do - which might be easier as a Koriani than not.

*2. Does the uncleared crystal's preference to remain in Koriathain service have anything to do with the longevity binding augmented by the Fellowship. *
- When Elaira's longevity bindings were "adjusted" by Kharadmon, it was done such that Morriel wouldn't notice. This may or may not have required consent from her personal crystal. I would doubt it as that would involve the Fellowship interfering with a non-Atheran artifact - unless the crystal voluntarily offered its assistance to Kharadmon
- The crystal is sentient and seemingly powerful. It might have seen a future scenario that it wanted to partake in and hence stay uncleared.
- Having seen what happened to another sister when her crystal was cleared by Caolle, perhaps the crystal did not want the same type of thing happening to Elaira.

On Blue's points:
- Enithen Tuer may have had some knowledge of LotMB, been given to Koriani when young and wanted out at a later stage. The scarred lady in Jaelot still seems a conundrum of another Koriani escapee - although her injuries seem to be more revenge by the Koriani than anything else.
- the possibility of communication or otherwise sharing of feelings/knowledge/intent between Elaira's personal crystal and the native Atheran crystal she bought cannot be underestimated. So I like the stone conspiracy theory, just not sure it's practical.

Having her personal crystal removed from Elaira also removed some potentially thorny plot questions… given Arithon put the melody into Lirenda's personal crystal that got her all aflutter with his manliness and compassion, what would have happened had Elaira been wearing her personal spell crystal in the heat of passion with Arithon? Would it have melted down? Fed the passion back through Skyron to Morriel and Lirenda to pore over, understand or simply be overwhelmed at the raw emotion being driven through the crystals?

Although, I guess Selide's actions to get at Arithon that were thwarted by Alithiel and Alestron's Paravian wards seemed to show that physical proximity of Elaira's spell crystal wasn't terribly relevant.

originally posted by DarthJazy

I feel I may put my pointless 2 cents in.

Having Read the series 6 times (minus SF ofcourse dam USA publishers) I feel that Elaira is completly and utterly clueless that she can ask to be removed. I noticed with her character that if it envolves something she may want for herself she never sees the way to achieve it. I also think she finds the F7 rather annoying at times and does not fully trust them when it concerns arithon and herself. last now that I think about it Arithon shows this same annoying traight of never realizing the method is right in front of his face to make himself happy.

Bunch of love sick brainlessness going on here god im glad im single again hehe. I like the bit of intelligence I have left.

originally posted by Meredith Lee Gray

It was Luhaine that reconfigured Elaira's longevity binding.

originally posted by John Parsons

I think its a lot more complicated than simple ignorance. Both Elaira and Arithon seem to me to be the kind of people who value personal integrity. So E knows she took a vow, and although she may now regret it, it was still a vow.However she has shown that if the chips were down she would break the vow and take the consequences, were Morriel to ask something she just would not do. M knows this and has cleverly avoided putting her in that situation, saying similar to "you don't break a useful tool".My feeling is that eventually M will be driven by anger and desperation to force Elaira to choose between her vow and her values and then Elaira will ask.


originally posted by Lyssabits

I'm sort of inclined to believe the ignorance idea if only because the F7 have consistently refused to help them with other things that were sort of outside their purview. However both Asandir and (I think?) Karadamon have *strongly* hinted that Elaira should ask.

It is getting a little harder to continue to believe that Elaira just isn't aware, because while I can believe that Elaira might simply be so conditioned to believe her vow is absolute, I have a very hard time with the idea that Arithon hasn't figured it out yet.


But you know, given the extremely heavy-handed way in which Asandir kept asking, "Wouldn't you like to ask us for a FAVOR? Isn't there ANYTHING you REALLY REALLY WANT? Even if it's something you think is impossible we'll TOTALLY HELP YOU OUT!" at the end of Stormed Fortress there, and Elaira COMPLETELY missing the point (I mean my God, Asandir couldn't have been more OBVIOUS without waving an "Ask me about breaking your oath!" banner there…) I can totally believe that she just simply doesn't know. Didn't they make a point about how the binding oath causes stagnation or something rather than allowing for creativity? Maybe in some way the oath limits Elair's ability to understand her options, and because she's so tightly linked to Arithon, he's sort of blinded by her ignorance, at least where this matter is concerned?

originally posted by DarthJazy

My point exactly Lyssabits Love will bring down Arithon in end just as it nearly destroyed Lysaer and Anakin Skywalker

originally posted by Julie

Maybe Elaira just wants to leave the order on her own terms and not get anyone else involved. She knows that she is needed alive and well for Selidie to keep track of Arithon. She also knows her life span will be hundreds of years and we've seen how patient she can be. She's obviously not too worried since she is "hand fast to Rathain".

originally posted by DarthJazy

Is it me or do most stories in our world seem to involve something great getting destroyed for the love of a woman :stuck_out_tongue: lets take a look.

Obvious one is Arithon and Elaira.
Anakin and Padme.
Adam and Eve.
Helen of Troy and her prince names escapes me at the moment.

all done cause a woman thought she could handle it and was wrong and should have asked for help.

originally posted by Meredith Lee Gray

To be fair, there's probably just as many stories of a man getting into trouble or ruining "something great" because he thought he could handle it and didn't want to ask for help. :slight_smile:

originally posted by Jo

How many real wars have ever been started by women? Off the top of my head ooh I can't think of any please enlighten me.

Hope everyone had a nice Christmas and have a Happy New Year

originally posted by RapierIan

Well, the Trojan War certainly. Also I wouldn't be surprised if some of the English or Spanish queens were responsible for a few wars.

originally posted by Trys

DJ, can you expand on your examples. I'm not seeing them.

Ian, So what DID Helen do to start the war? Be born?

I think the political situation of the area had more to do with the Trojan War happening than Paris 'stealing' Helen. Menelaus might have gotten irked by the event but it was Agememnon's desire to have Troy that was probably the primary motivator… or were you being tongue in cheek?


originally posted by RapierIan


In some of the accounts, Helen went willingly with Paris. If she did, then she certainly bears some responsibility. Of course, even in that case she was much more of an excuse to go to war than the actual cause.


originally posted by Trys



Helen went willingly with Paris.

Yup… that's why I single quoted the word 'stealing'.

originally posted by Lyssabits

Really the Trojan War had very little to do with Helen and more to do with petty goddesses who were pouty because they weren't invited to a wedding or picked to be the prettiest girl in the room. :wink: So I guess still a woman doing the harm, but not because of a man.

originally posted by Blue

It all depends on the source you read - according to Homer (author of the Iliad and the Odyssey), Helen never went to Troy.

The goddesses who were pouting, (Hera, Athena, Aphrodite) had tried to claim the apple Eris (goddess of discord) had rolled through the festivities, marked "to the fairest", out of spite for not being invited to the wedding.

Paris, the Trojan Prince, was asked to judge the three goddesses and decide who was fairest. Hera promised riches, Athena promised wisdom, and Aphrodite promised him the most beautiful woman in the world as his wife. He judged in favor of Aprhodite, who caused Helen to fall in love with him - according to some versions.

The complication came up, however, that Helen was already married, to Menelaus, King of Sparta. Paris abducted Helen - again, depending upon the source, she went willingly. There are sources that imply Aphrodite simply gave Helen to Paris without Helen's consent, and Paris took off with her, in spite of her protests.

Menelaus, who had had a devil of a time competing against all of the Kings of the Greek City-States for her hand, called in a debt from the rest of the Kings. ALL had sworn a vow, when accepting Helen's choice of husband, to protect her and to help recover her if she were kidnapped.

Paris, when he performed the judgment, was in exile, because due to a prophecy, HE was supposed to be the reason Troy would be destroyed.