originally posted by Hellcat
Something I have been wondering for a a while now,
Spoilers
etc
The ruins at Mainmere, wait for "The tread of the one who would come in the hour of Athera's greatest peril" (mis-quote I'm sure.) Which the free wraiths dealt with, what is that peril?
My guess; Its the F7.
originally posted by Annette
Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler.
I always thought humanity itself was Athera's greatest peril, as well as her greatest hope for the future. It was inevitable they were going to break the compact. I expect the F7 to follow form and sit it out, they will lose hope, and when hope returns they are not going to be going up against the dragons to save humanity. I believe the Fellowship have known Arithon's Destiny all the time, Sethvir's comment about fatal glory just about confirms it. So they lose Arithon, they will think there is no chance of saving things, so no reason to destroy humanity. The dragons might think otherwise.
I expect that conflict to be humanity vs the dragons, unless Dharkaron is going to make an appearance as well. Either way humanity seems out powered, so I expect them to hide to survive. Janny always seemed to have mentioned bolt holes around the place that would be safe for that.
originally posted by Annette
So there must be quite a pause in the action somewhere if a new city is going to be built in Daon Ramon barrens.
quote:Sunwheel became sun, sinking red to a horizon of weather-stripped hills: Daon Ramon. Before the light palled into featureless night, he beheld a new city embedded in tangled black canes of old briar. Somewhere, somebody sobbed in the throes of a gut-wrenching agony…
Maybe the new city does not last very long.
quote:A city, sheeted in fire and burning; a child, dead in the dust.
Perhaps this time Arithon will not need the running shoes on for the entire book.
originally posted by Gary
Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler.
I think some of this speculation may be crazy, but that's part of the fun?
Speculation: there is still one more huge revelation to come with Hanshire and the Koriathain.
So far, IIRC, we have seen that Hanshire is "cozy" with the Order. When Lysaer/Sulfin passed through in "Traitor's Knot", we saw a lot of Koriani seniors with the town council. They have been getting grants of land/etc. from the local town for many generations. And the s'Gannley offshoot is of interest to the Order as well.
But, none of that really explains Elaira's thought when she met Sulfin Evend in Stormed Fortress:
quote:The order's wandering independents were a tough breed. They did not visit Hanshire. If he asked, she would cite him the reason.
Speculation #2: How much land/buildings do the Koriani have in Hanshire? And is it mainly used as farming/living quarters? Or also for something else?
Speculation #3: How might this tie in with Hanshire initially being against the return of royal rule in Tysan (which, incidentally, might make it harder to violate the Compact in that territory)? This is reaching, Koriani don't need much of a reason to dislike something that strengthens the Compact.
From Sulfin Evend's trip to Hanshire in "Traitor's Knot":
quote:The sealed bargain with Hanshire's ruling council is renewed with each generation. Before the obligation demanded of me, the sisterhood has asked no more than buildings, or land, or sometimes a tithing of labour. The obligation began in the years of the uprising, when our mayors asked service, and provided a safe haven for enchantresses who were in flight, or left homeless at large on the country-side.
originally posted by Paige Madison
Annette, regarding your quotes above, can you post the book, chapter, and subchapter? I would like to read the whole thing in context. I've just completed my third or fourth reread and those quotes don't ring a bell at all.
Spoilers below:
My speculation is three fold. First, there is a determined effort by the Fellowship Sorcerers to avoid a meetup between Arithon and Seshkrozchiel the dragon. I've got a feeling that these two are going to cross paths before all is said and done and the results will throw some wrenches into everybody's plans at the very least if not change the future direction of Athera entirely.
Secondly, there are some fascinating references in Book 1 right after they seal the Mistwraith. I've got a feeling that the Miswraith will cause more trouble before it's dealt with for good.
Third, I foresee major developments with Seldie Prime/Arithon/Elaira with the anti-necromancy that Elaira carries to give to Arithon. I also think that Elaira may not be trained formally, but she has become a lot more powerful than she realizes and may end up running a new, reformed Koriani order.
originally posted by Annette
Paige missed some of our most infamous hints, Dakar's visions? This one was when Dakar was trying to find the same event Jieret had warned them of, he was trying to trace the source of the execution. But Dakar's dread got the better of him. This set of prophecies is from Fugitive Prince (CH IV Turnaround, pg 135 in the latest paperback)I use digital versions to find the quotes, so tend to be lazy and not include the references. I am thinking Arithon might have met the unicorn before Initiate's Trial, but we will have to wait for Destiny's Conflict to find out.
There are a few such hints in the past books, Ath's Adept gave one at Lysaer's trial, Morriel's vision of her downfall should also be seen in the next book. And Lysaer himself is a good source of hints, although while under the influence of the curse he usually gets it sort of back the front. But certainly some of the things Lysaer has said about Arithon, and how Lysaer behaved could lead to some wild speculation. When not under influence of the curse Lysaer has no such pretensions to divinity, and does not seem to favour wearing white. I am actually starting to think going on what all these judges wear (black) if Lysaer got his colours reversed as well, maybe it is not only Arithon that changes.
And it is suspicious that after all these years we still do not know what Etarra's sigil is, Janny seems to be keeping that as a surprise.
The nest of vipers at Hanshire with a little encouragement from Davien was the source of the rebellion. Hanshire has also been associated with dark practice, so probably the independent Koriani avoid the place for good reason. Elaira spent some time there while being trained. And it was already revealed what Morriel wanted from Hanshire's ruling family, she never got it. Necromancers and Koriani always seem to choose sites where the mysteries are closest to the surface. There is likely something else in Hanshire that attracted them all, the triaxial knots would be a hint. The dais of carven, serpentine jade left by the ancient Paravians is probably something to do with it. Janny never mentions such obscure things in such detail unless she has a reason for it. We might not know it at the time, but it is bound to come up later.
I suspect some of the intricate descriptions of magic will come up later in an entirely different light. Janny was showing us how it could work, but left the speculation to us once we got suspicious, some creative thinking is needed to wonder where Janny is going with that.
Remember Mother Dark's mystery walk in Arithon's tracks, we might not know where he is going or how he is getting there, but watching how he evolves once freed of the curse and how he applies his talents might be a clue. Apart from one glimpse in the first book we have yet to see if Lysaer has any creative potential, he wasted most of his time using his talent to blind fools and destroy things. Maybe Daliana will bring out a different side to him if given a chance.
I agree, if prime power can only be passed to a female, Elaira is the one most likely to end up with it in the next book. But I do not think Elaira is its final destination.
quote:His enchantress retained her forlorn charge of the fact his male existence had once celebrated his true match
We will probably have to wait for Song of the Mysteries to see if Prime Power stays with Elaira, finds a better match, or maybe evolves into something else.
originally posted by Julie
Hi Annette:
Part of what I liked so much about Initiate's Trial is our glimpses of Lysaer's creative talent. Although it would be wonderful if Lysaer could have reversed five centuries of hate and destruction , the mere fact that he secured some peace for the clans in Rathain is huge. His inborn sense of justice prevailed at Daliana's "trial". And I think he really detests the true faith and their violent imperialism. He is pretty much powerless. This was what the Ath's adept warned about in Fugitive Prince.
As for Elaira and the Koriani. Perhaps Arithon uses the Beider knife to break the necromanic (my word!)ties to Selidie, the Koriani is then forced to drastically reconfigure or die out. Can't imagine Elaira would have any interest in being the leader of any group.
originally posted by Annette
Lysaer's sense of justice has always been strong, if twisted by the curse most of the time we have seen him. It was Lysaer's more practical creative side I was thinking of.
quote:Strung in his hands was a chain of lights, delicate as flame hung on beadwire.
quote:
But her glance betrayed her, as she marvelled at the shining string that quivered and danced between his hands. His smile deepened at the corners. 'No jewel can compare.'He looked down at the bauble, made it gleam and spit sparks like stirred embers. 'This cannot compare. It's a poor, flashy phantom. A worthless illusion sprung from light. But if you insist on hiding in the darkness, at least if you wear it, you'll be gilded.' He reached up, stepped closer and, with a gesture that brushed the bared skin of her collarbones, settled his spell around her neck.
The lights were neither warm nor cold; in fact, their presence against her flesh raised no tactile sensation at all. That for an oddity made her ache. As if, like a gem or a pearl, she should feel something tangible from his gift.
'Gold suits you,' Lysaer murmured. He watched in quiet pleasure as she experimented with his handiwork, let it spill like captive fireflies through her fingers.
Arithon can create realistic looking shadows, in Initiates Trial that dead horse seemed to have been an improvement over his previous efforts, without using initiate talent how did it stay there that long? Arithon also has other talents, his musical ability to create the grand chord is a significant one.
Lysaer has the same s'Ahelas inheritance as Arithon, far sight, prophecy and mage gifted if untrained. Lysaer has with a bit of help used his talent once for healing, and at Tirans we saw he could absorb light as well as create it. If freed of the curse and love had a chance to redeem him, what else might Lysaer be able to do? Janny has been very secretive about Lysaer's destiny. Apart from a centaur asking him to come home, there was not many clues. It seems Athlieria might be final destination for just about everyone, so that was no help. Although three times Lysaer was offered that choice and three times he refused, surely they would not have offered it if Lysaer's destiny was in Athera?
originally posted by Gary
Annette,
I thought there was a hint of implied greatness in Lysaer's power, as seen by Jieret after his encounter with the Raven in Peril's Gate (XI Nightfall):
quote:Light flowed from the aperture framed by his hand, two threads of harmonic resonance pulled from the grand chord and bidden to manifest as white fire.
I'm not sure what could be implied from this, but it sounds similar to some aspects of what Ath's Adepts do in their sacred groves. IIRC there, they also pull power from the grand chord, and use it to weave representations of inner being (dreams) - and other things, I'm aware that my description is sorely lacking.
In fact, it seems like Ath's Adepts show reality/truth (note the difference between this and the power of Prophecy).
I don't quite see the wider picture yet here (especially what it may mean for Lysaer), but could be worth thinking about?
originally posted by Gary
Annette,
the main hint of non-Koriani dark practice that I could see with Hanshire was the issue with Sulfin's great-uncle, and I wasn't completely willing to rule out the possibility that it was actually related to Erdane not being so far away.
But you raise some very good points, I retract most of my supposition 
Elaira's thought still seems strange to me though.
originally posted by Annette
SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER
quote:Beyond pride, he aired the unsavoury history that had shadowed his paternal name for generations. 'Our mayors have always traded dark secrets. My sire learned the practice at his grandfather's knee, and Raiett was his closest confidant. Remember that Hanshire's provided a roost for Koriathain all the way back to the uprising! The town's history is ugly, its past record core-rotten with treason. The hotbed of ill craft and entangled jealousy began there, with the dissenting minds that fermented the crown massacre intended to unseat the compact.'
Elaira was only a third rank healer, such intrigues and dark dealings would be against her nature. She was never involved with that side of her order. What right thinking healer would stay in a place like that? There could be something more to it, but if so I cannot remember Janny mentioning it yet. But then re-reading often brings little details to light you never noticed before, it could be hidden in there some where. It was mentioned in Peril's Gate that Hanshire's mayors don't fraternize with Erdane's council, so it does not seem likely Sulfin's grand-uncle would have moved to Erdane. Having clan blood it would have been dangerous for him, more likely the incident occurred in Hanshire.
Elaira gains Prime power (probably by being the only female who can survive it) she can hardly turn the job down. As the head of the order she can do with it whatever she wants. A compassionate order of healers devoted to helping others seems something that would appeal to Elaira. I do not see Seliedie/Morriel willingly offering Elaira a chance at Prime power, but once Morriel finally gets exorcised, redeemed or whatever it takes to send her on her way that Prime power has to find a new home. Presumably Morriel cannot take it with her. Selidie seems a poor proposition, Lirenda is still flawed and a few hints have been given Elaira might succeed. If Morriel is going to invite Arithon into her lair for anything, Elaira is probably going to be there. Or maybe it is Elaira and Selidie/Morriel that have the showdown and Arithon is just the bait. Somehow I think Janny will have all of them in the same room, Selidie/Morriel, Lirenda, Elaira, Arithon and the Waystone, we just have to see how she manages to get them all there, and what mayhem results from it. I do not see Morriel making the mistake that undoes her unless she is face to face with her bane. Not unless Arithon is planning on just slowly driving her insane, which she seems to already be doing by herself anyway.
Arithon's comment 'In fact, I should skulk in my enemy’s skin?'was intriguing, it seemed a bit extreme for just wearing The Hatchet's helmet, although Arithon did do better than just that. You have to wonder after such a brief meeting with The Hatchet, how did Arithon manage to duplicate him so well, is he pulling imprints from possessions these days to fill out his acting expertise? If there was more to Arithon's comment about skulking in his enemies skin which enemy? Selidie, Lysaer another group of necromancers, or someone else. We have yet to see how Arithon is going to get rid of that True Sect priesthood, if in fact that is his problem to solve. While they seem very bloodthirsty it does not seem likely they are going to be drinking blood literally. Dakar suggested they are more into bone, maybe it is not Elaira who is going to be sacrificing a finger? We have seen hair and blood used for dark practice, bone knives but not splinters of bone yet. Be interesting to see how they meet their demise, and which brother is responsible. Lysaer while not completely in their power yet, seems likely to go that way. Will he in fact torch them himself when he realises what he has done, is the glory of Arithon's intact aura truly going to be fatal to some, or is something else going to happen, Seshkrozchiel maybe.
originally posted by Clansman
I've been saying this on this board for about 5 years that in order for there to be resolution in this story, Lysaer must be redeemed somehow. Annette said a few posts above:
"If freed of the curse and love had a chance to redeem him, what else might Lysaer be able to do?"
Love. An underpinning theme of this entire series, and I mean that self-sacrificing kind of love that we have seen displayed since the beginning of this series, by Arithon, Elaira, the Fellowship, and selfless sacrifices by the clans at various times. Jieret gave his life so that Arithon could have his.
Yesterday, I heard the song by Sting called "Love is Stronger than Justice" (a tongue in cheek song, to be sure), but taking the chorus at a higher meaning than what the verses would indicate, Love may conquer Lysaer's twisted sense of Justice. Sulfin Evend started the work, and it is being continued by Daliana.
This is also an ancient Christian theme (the atoning sacrifice of Christ (love) for the sins of humanity, freeing them from the consequences of their breaking of God's law (justice)) that has been often (read: regularly) ignored by Christian churches ever since. Could the "whited sepulchres" that are the leaders of the True Sect themselves be undone by Love? By an all-atoning sacrifice of some kind? The prologue in CotMW only mentions "temple archives", not that the temple is active.
We have all learned to our pleasure that nothing is to be taken for granted when it comes to Janny's writing. Nuance, hidden meaning, subtle double entendre are her stock in trade!
The questions is, how will Love conquer justice? And after justice is conquered, what is in store for Lysaer to do, set free from the Curse? I do not believe that the initial prophecies of Dakar are brought to fruition, as the Mistwraith, both in Rockfell and on Marak, is only contained, not yet defeated. Therefore, Arithon and Lysaer must join forces once again in order to free the wraiths from their eternal torment (again, another sacrifice based out of love). Notice that the wraiths were never defeated by force, only contained. They were put to rest by Arithon Naming them, over a period of centuries.
originally posted by Julie
Clansman:
Although I may not have stated it as eloquently as you- I have also said Lysaer must be redeemed at some point. You mentioned self sacrificing kind of love- I absolutley believe Lysaer is capable of this. In COTM he declines Traithe's offer of instruction on the basis of devoting his full self to "his people". Now that is his upbringing speaking but throughout the series he does sacrifice much (Talith) however twisted the motivation.
I am not sure if love has to conquer justice. For Lysaer love has to work in partner with justice
originally posted by Annette
Actually it takes a bit more than just Naming a wraith to redeem it, it takes grace and compassion as well. Arithon took care of all Marak's wraiths and he likely gets the fun job of redeeming all the others still imprisoned on this side of the veil. Those in Rockfell those entrapped in crystal, and probably some drake spawn thrown in for good measure. If Lysaer had a part to play in redeeming Rockfells wraiths, Ath's adepts and the centaur would not have been trying to redeem him. Lysaer has to claim his own salvation before he can go helping any other lost spirits. It is likely those still living that are lost Lysaer can help with in some way, part of that problems was after all of his making. He might get a part yet in the grand destiny but it seems unlikely to be as a mortal Prince if Ath's gifted are all trying to get him to Athlieria.
quote:The adept swept to her feet, relentless. "Unstop your ears and listen, scion of s'Ilessid. Persist on your present path, and you shall gain your desires." As Lysaer's blue eyes widened, she pressed him, "Oh yes. Your half brother shall walk in the shadow you create. But not before you stand blackened enough to raise despair of a force sufficient to break him. Every mortal enclave on this continent shall fall as victim to your cause. Your memory shall be sealed in the archives by violence, for nothing in creation can stand or flourish in the absence of love. Let us see, in the hour that Arithon's blood stains your hands, whether conviction for your fellowman or overweening pride is your master."
I still think the clues about what Lysaer has to do a bit vague, on the face of it once freed of the curse Lysaer's own gift of Justice is going to doom him. No Paravians, adepts or Fellowship Sorcerers will be offering him assistance. Maybe Arithon can help before hand but if left on his own to face the consequences of his actions Lysaer will have to find his own redemption.
quote:I would forfeit salvation before taking the chance of abandoning mankind to the darkness
Whether cursed or not, I do not think Lysaer's thoughts above are going to change. It might take more than a miracle to get Lysaer to Athlieria, he might insist on seeking his own requital. If redeemed by love and given a chance to be all that he could be, what would he do?
originally posted by Julie
I do not think Lysaer is so unchangeable or lost. We have never been let into his head as much as Arithon's. He loved and was loved by Talith and has rued his treatment of her for hundreds of years. He is becomming self aware and struggles to contain the curse. Although he may not fully trust Dakar he welcomes his company and advise. He may not be able to directly appeal to the Fellowship, but in his right mind he does not reject their help. He knew about Sulfen Evend's oath and spirit mark. Dakar reminded him about that man's "exquisite loyalty" through providing decendants to support him in his need. I refuse to believe Lysaer sees these as mere tools to kill Arithon and break the compact.
originally posted by Anmoal Chopra
Hi All,
just finished the latest book and may I say it was great. I was a bit upset with the death of Havish's King he was young but the deed was beyond his years, this alone should be merited and applauded
I think the next book will be about bringing back the return of the missing sorcerer (Black Rose Prophecy) and the return of Arithons locked past. He needs to be fully functional to help defeat the curse. I would like to see if Arithon lashes out at Dakar for the imprisonment he had to endure at the hand of the witches that are the Koriathain.
Knowing my luck my above thoughts wont come to pass just yet but gut says that the there is a price for the black arts that is fuelling the True sect.
Personally I hope in the end Lysaer breaks free of the curse with Arithon's help
Just back from Oasis in Orlando - what a lovely weekend, great people and a sweet convention - run by folks who know how to do it with panache. We had a warm and wonderful time.
There will be a status update shortly.
originally posted by Annette
We are to speculate on what the reading was?
Nice you had a good time even if there were not truckloads of WoLaS fans there plying you with inducements to spill some news. Did you do anything for the charity auction?
Yes, for the charity auction.
There were a few readers there, and we hope, a few new ones picked up books from the table.
originally posted by Annette
Back to the speculating then, while we wait.
I do not think Arithon would ever strike out at Dakar, Dakar did his best, he is only human and fallible. Dakar should know Arithon well enough by now to know he is not going to be blamed for what happened, so I think it must be some other consequence that has Dakar shaking in his boots.
Arithon seems doomed to forgive everyone else but himself, so if he cannot blame anyone else for what happened I suppose he will end up blaming himself for allowing it to happen, even though he knew nothing about a daughter, and was completely powerless to prevent what she freely chose to do with her life. If he could hold himself responsible for Jieret's death, it will be interesting to see how he blames himself for what happened to Teylia. If his temper gets the better of him he should take up the grievance up with Selidie Prime, who I thought was a better candidate for blame than Dakar.
Arithon gave permission for his imprisonment even if it was under duress (or maybe he just chose to die, we have yet to get to that bit), it would have been Selidie pulling the strings again. Dakar might have sold him out to the Fellowship yet again, but it could have been a lot worse, at least he is still alive because or Dakar's intervention, and Athera has not been invaded by free wraith's.