Ciladis, Davien and the Black Rose

originally posted by Ryan Gohl

I've been rereading Curse of the Mistwraith. From reading the books that come after, some of the references in the book make alot more sense.

Pardon me please if this has been brought up before…

A question, assuming the sorcerer bound in sleep on the island with the Riathan Paravian is Ciladis, what do you think will occasion his awakening? Or do you think he is awake already?

What do you think will be the catalyst to have Davien rejoin the Fellowship?

Lastly, what will cause the Black Rose to grow which will fortell the imminent restoration of the Fellowship to the full compliment of seven?

originally posted by Konran

I was just reading that part this morning, and I wondered about it, because something hit me for the first time. It says "Davien shall hear no reason, nor bow to the Law of the Major Balance; neither shall the Fellowship be restored to seven until the black rose grows in the wilds of Daon Ramon Barrens." (That's approximate, I don't have it in front of me.) But… is that one thought or two? Is Dakar saying that Davien will only hear reason when the Black Rose grows, or is he saying that he WILL NOT hear reason? That word, neither, is sort of ambiguous.

The cause of the black rose is easy. :smiley: A few lines later, Sethvir says there is no such rose, and Dakar says that the briar will take root the day Arithon s'Ffalenn embraces kingship.

(I'm so happy to be able to have it to read… I couldn't find the book the other day and I was heartsick to think I might have lost it somewhere at school… luckily someone had just thrown it into my room when I wasn't paying attention. XP)

originally posted by Hannah

Konran, that has a big discussion at various points on the board. I haven't the faintest where the link has been. But it's a very fine point, whether Janny is saying one won't happen and the other will happen when the black rose grows. Or if she's saying both will happen when etc. I don't recall the issue ever being conclusively settled.

Very interesting point though. :smiley:

originally posted by Konran

Drat, and here I thought I'd come up with a new revelation. XP lol *lurks off to find that post Hannah is talking about*

originally posted by Neil

Hi Konran, I had a go at this one a while back in December after reading Traitor's Knot and rereading again the posts, I'm even more confused…

Here is my post but you may like to scroll to the top and read the whole thread :smiley:

(link removed)

originally posted by Trys

*I don't recall the issue ever being conclusively settled.*Nor is it likely to be resolved until we reach that point in the story… or Janny tells us. The latter being highly unlikely. :smiley:

originally posted by Hunter

Now that we've seen more of Davien, the question for me is what "reason" is Davien supposed to see?

Removed TK spoiler from NON-spoiler topic.

(Message edited by admin on April 07, 2005)

originally posted by Konran

Thanks for the link, unfortunately I can't read the posts yet. :frowning_face: *still waiting…*

originally posted by Annette

Sorry for replying to such an ancient topic, but there is not much for the newer fans to do without reviving some ancient history.

I would presume since the arrival of sunlight did not awaken our sleeping sorcerer that something more is needed. Perhaps Arithon is going to give Ciladis a masterbard's version of reveille, presumably with something like a horn/bugle rather than a lyranthe. Perhaps something suitable is lying around Althain Tower some where, just waiting for the right person to find it and try it out.

originally posted by Sleo

The topics are always fresh for those of us who are addicted to this story. How far along are you in the series? Have you finished what's written and just reviving discussion of old as yet unsolved mysteries? I love it - 'the masterbard's version of reveille.'

Hi Annette - welcome, never hesitate to revive an old topic - it is not ancient history at all as this aspect of the story is still unresolved, and quite open to reader speculation.

originally posted by Annette


The topics are always fresh for those of us who are addicted to this story. How far along are you in the series? Have you finished what's written and just reviving discussion of old as yet unsolved mysteries? I love it - 'the masterbard's version of reveille.'

I have read all the books and the three short stories, but being only a recent convert missed out on nearly all the discussion. The books I have now read multiple times, I am just a bit lazy at typing up some notes for the interesting bits. Janny left us lots of clues as to where the story is going.

I do not believe Davien went through all that trouble just to end up back with the compact and a s'Ffalenn high king, he has something else in mind for Arithon. Likely he is not going to be rejoining the fellowship or bowing to any Law of the Major Balance till almost the end of the series when Arithon claims the destiny Davien has in mind.

Davien rejoins the Fellowship before Arithon succeeds he is bound by the Law of the Major Balance and the terms of the compact, Davien's hands will be tied. Davien described Arithon as his "fit weapon, to champion the cause of humanity". No he is not expecting Arithon to salvage the compact, Davien has already given his opinion on the compact. Assandir has mentioned what the breaking of that compact will result in, the destruction of humanity, by the sorcerers themselves. It is bound to happen.

Davien also mentions in Traitor's Knot that the Fellowship cannot determine Arithon's future, within the Law of the Major Balance (there was a clue explaining a bit more about that but I cannot find it at the moment). So Davien is not going to be tied by the Law of the Major Balance till Arithon's future is set. There seems more than one way to interpret "embraces kingship", the Black Rose prophecy might not be referring to Arithon becoming High King of Rathain.

originally posted by Annette

The Fellowship not being able to determine Arithon's future, within the Law of the Major Balance could also just mean the choice is up to Arithon. Everyone keeps saying he is too fated to determine his future.

originally posted by Sleo

Ultimately I don't think anyone will decide Arithon's fate except him. Just my opinion. Not that he won't be influenced, of course.

originally posted by Annette


Perhaps Arithon is going to give Ciladis a masterbard's version of reveille, presumably with something like a horn/bugle rather than a lyranthe. Perhaps something suitable is lying around Althain Tower some where, just waiting for the right person to find it and try it out.

Actually I did finally notice Janny drew our attention to a likely looking object. The whistle the Masterbard Elshian carved from a tine of Shehane Althain's right antler. Last seen in the first floor storeroom of Althain tower. It was referred to in Grand Conspiracy pg 18 (mass market version) I wonder if Luhaine put the sunloop back next to it when he finished with it.

Perhaps Ciladis will be woken up after all the excitement has settled down, no wraiths, no curse driven wars, nothing to get him too worried.

originally posted by Annette

Actually I thought about this and there is a mention in Traitor's Knot that might give a clue as to why Ciladis might be still sleeping. I thought I read it somewhere, but could never find it.


'The question beckons, Sethvir, does it not? Can you say in the depths of your tormented dreams you have not pursued the temptation? To just walk away? Cross Fate's Wheel and be done? Leave Athera's fate to fall or to languish - why not let the flow of the mysteries fail? Death is the mask that drives the illusion. Why not let the darkness unveil its own light, and resurrect its next hope of salvation?'
'Ciladis could not,' Sethvir whispered. Anemone pale in the thin flood of starlight, he kept up his laboured speech. 'After one armageddon and its cost of deliverance in slaughter, I believe he would finally go mad.'

Traitor's Knot pg 381 (UK paperback)

If the Paravians are protecting Ciladis from the bloodshed yet to come, he would probably not be woken till after the conflict part of Destiny's Conflict is over. Either that or he gets woken up and they leave him there out of harms way till things settle down.

originally posted by Ryan Gohl

Interesting repsonses. I just happened to swing by and see a thread I started 6 years ago got revived, how fun!

I pop in and out often, but I haven't posted in a long while.

Reading to current, I still have no idea what the answer may be. That Ciladis is being sheltered from mass slaughter makes sense, given that his gnetle nature and focus on healing has been in the forefront often enough.

Davien, he has no care for the fellowship, more to the point in how they are bound in their actions. The individuals in the fellowship, I am fairly certain he has a good regard of them in general, but he will not be bound to act against his own judgment. How that might be resolved? Perhaps a change in the terms of the compact, or a dissolution of the compact and a new one formed?

As for Arithon, embracing kingship could mean one of his bloodline taking it perhaps, and that he sanctions it? I'm just tossing random thoughts out is all.

originally posted by AJP

I believe the 'armageddon' they are referring to is likely the one of the Fellowhip's past… The destruction of starfaring humanity only briefly mentioned in the subtext of the series, which I suspect the Fellowship was highly involved in… and from which they were redeemed through the drake's dreams.

I was thinking it may be as simple as the fact that Ciladis will set foot on Athera again with the first Pavarian(s) to return. I'm not sure why none have yet returned, excluding the occasional episode here and there where they respond to Arithon's engagement of the higher mysteries, but I'm thinking he'll be right by their side when they do…


originally posted by Annette

Spoiler, Spoiler, Spoiler, Spoiler…
In the last paragraph.

I agree the Armageddon refereed to is the destruction of the previous human civilisation. What they are saying is Ciladis's sanity would not survive a similar thing happening again. The humans break the compact, the drake binding will force the Sorcerer's to destroy humanity again. The Paravians are protecting him, he is still on Athera, the island he is on was one of the first to see sunlight when the Mistwraith was contained. The Armageddon quote is just giving a possible reason why Ciladis is being protected.

The Dragons drew/dreamed the Fellowship to Athera, but it was their encounter with the Paravians that led to their redemption. We only need look at the changes in Arithon after encountering the Paravians, to understand how Ciladis might have changed. Arithon seems to be made of steel, he is the one being tempered to endure no matter what, Ciladis it seems is not made to endure such conflict. Of the Fellowship, Ciladis seems to have been closest to the Paravians, maybe that is why he changed so much.

Spoiler, Spoiler, Spoiler, Spoiler…

The bit about the darkness unveiling its own light, and resurrecting its next hope of salvation always grabbed my attention there, my imagination came up with all sorts of ideas. Arithon seems is to be Mother Dark's Light, and he is going to have to return from a certain execution. Arithon has already produced numerous miracles to save humanity and Athera, still they want to butcher him, he returns from the dead, they will just kill him again. So what is going to change that? Take the quoted conversation literally and put them in the dark with no sun they will see Lysaer is a false light quick enough and start praying to Ath to save them. Strangely enough Janny mentioned a way that could be done in Initiate's Trial. The wardspell used to seperate the free wraiths. I would still rather some divine justice fall on them though, than it just be a sorcerer's plan. Could the Fellowship even delay like that in the hope of humanity turning over a new leaf. Or maybe the mysteries do die and they simply give up and do nothing. Arithon and those Mysteries are I believe closely connected. Lose Arithon they might lose more than just Rathain's last Prince. Kill Arithon and I believe Lysaer's fanatics break the compact. And Davien I suspect knows quite a bit about Arithon's future, which is why he has done what he has, and why he will wait for Arithon to prove him right before rejoining the Fellowship.

Arithon for some mad reason breaks into Rockfell and banishes the Mistraith, Traithe can be healed.

Arithon finds a way to free Lysaer from the curse, survive his own execution and the possible consequences of the compact being broken, it should be safe for Ciladis to return.

Arithon claims the destiny Davien seems to know about, Davien rejoins the Fellowship. I do have an idea what Davien is hoping for.

originally posted by Sleo

Hey, I like your thinking, Annette. :smiley: