Arithon's Parentage

originally posted by Ben

Hi all. Just had something that had been bothering me for a little while, and I finally got around to asking those in the know :smiley:

Arithon's father, a S'Ffalenn, would obviously have the inbuilt compassion trait, and his mother, a S'Ahelas, would have foresight. What was bugging me is that between the parents, would they not have prevented Arithon from ever inheriting the royal rule on Dascen Elur? His mother would have seen the effect of leadership on her child and how it would compromise his mage training. Then would she not tell his father, and his compassion would drive him to find any possible alternative to this outcome?

There is probably a very simple answer to this that I've missed, and I'll probably wind up very embarrassed, but a teacher once told me "The only stupid question is the one that goes unasked."

originally posted by skeoke

His mother died when he was 3, after removing him from (shoot - can't remember - his father's kingdom).

His father did not acknowledge him until he was 17, and there was no other heir.

Does that answer? No stupid questions. It's the little things that continue to trip me up, always.

originally posted by Ben

It is an answer, but I'm still slightly confused. I guess it would depend on how far the S'Ahelas foresight can actually see. If its not very many years then I've got my answer thanks Skeoke, but if it did…
I mean, we've all seen the lengths to which Arithon goes in the name of compassion, so IF his mother managed to see his future dilemma, and IF she told his father about it, lack of another heir or no, would his father have still offered power to Arithon? Maybe, seeing as there was no other possible alternative, but it would have been a difficult decision, and a result that wouldn't have been celebrated.

I know thats a lot of 'ifs' there, and that the answer will be either the S'Ffalenn father had no other choice, or the S'Ahelas gift doesn't reach far enough, but hopefully someone else somewhere had these thoughts and might be interested

originally posted by Myranda Rose

I think the foresight is not so all encompassing as to see many years into the future…

Also the s'Ffallen compassion in him might have lead him to end up as a commander fighting for his fathers people rather than the heir… they were starving and opressed he would have acted, and wound up in pretty much the same position I think.

originally posted by Kam

Actually I believe Avar was reluctant in naming Arithon his heir (hence the whole ignoring-my-son-thing for 17 years) but at the end, necessity came through.

The lack of a heir would mean that Avar would have to choose between his son and his people. I feel Avar would have choosen to sacrifice his son; trusting that Arithon would forgive him for it anyway.

As for his mother - I have always wondered about this. Her foresight led her to that liason with Avar and she knew that only grief would come from it. But I am surprised that she let it go through anyway, without considering what it might mean for Arithon.

Perhaps this is why she left Avar and went back to her father? Maybe she was hoping to distance Arithon as far as possible from the feud.

And then she died. Oh well.

originally posted by Ben

Yeah, thats a really good point Myranda. I've never thought about it that way before, maybe once he'd completed his mage training. However only Janny could say for sure.

It was said, although I can't for the life of me remember which book, that Arithon would forgive the knife that kills him. And don't do a quote of me on that either, I'm not too sure on the exact wording. I'm certain he could forgive his father who chose due to necessity.

originally posted by Blue

Ben, you are right about the quote. Dakar said it way back when in CotM, at Ithamon, when he was explaining the royal gifts to Lysaer.

I was under the impression that Talera left Avar and Karthan, because she knew Avar would have been obliged to stay ashore to defend a woman with an infant - particularly since that infant could be a potential claimant to Karthan's throne. Probably the more so because Talera WAS the strayed wife of Karthan's chief enemy.

This is just speculation, but it may have been that Avar was not necessarily ignoring Arithon, it was just that he had a lot more on his mind, such as governing Karthan, coordinating sustenance strikes on the Amrothian (?) trade, and many other things. Too, it mentions that Avar finally chose to acknowledge Arithon as his heir.

To me, that suggests desperation, that perhaps Avar had other heirs (brothers, cousins, nieces, nephews, etc.) that were all dead, and his last resort was an illegitimate child. Janny mentioned in an e mail conversation we had, when I questioned whether or not that meant that Arithon was actually legitimized, (that is, viewed as a legal heir in spite of his questionable birth circumstances) she said that even if he had been acknowledged as such, Amroth would not likely have recognized a sovereign judgment of Karthan, hence the reason the King of Amroth still called him "bastard."

originally posted by winter

Another possibility is that Talera's farsight wasn't very strong. I think Janny said that the gift is spread between all the members of the line and Talera wasn't the only s'Ahelas. She didn't have the foresight/farsight to see that Lysaer's father would see the bridegifts of elemental mastery as potential weapons.

I wonder who became ruler of Karthon in lieu of the s'Ffalenn line. I forget whether it was in the books or here somewhere, but after the half brothers were exiled Karthon was restored and a peace was more or less imposed. Karthon would have been a much less difficult place to rule after that.

originally posted by Trys

Another possibilkity is that Talera's farsight was exceptionally strong and she saw far enough into the future to see that it would be her 'two' sons who would free the skies of Athera from the mistwraith. Even if she didn't see that far, I think she DID see far enough to know that giving Amroth another child with an elemental gift was a huge mistake and so she left to balance the scales.

originally posted by Hunter

We've seen in Lysaer's views on women, parentage and inheritance that the Amrothian view, now the Tysanish and westlands view, that only "pure" children of a marriage of a man and woman would be considered legitimate. Which, as I understand, is completely contrary to clan law and the laws of who would be the heir to any Atheran High King under the old kingdom law. I'm sure I've read that illegitimacy has never disbarred other candidates from ascending to the throne.

I'm not sure Amroth would have recognized or acceded to any judgement from anyone in Karthan… legitimate or not!

originally posted by Blue

I'm sure I've read that illegitimacy has never disbarred other candidates from ascending to the throne.

You DID read that Hunter; Halliron said it in Strakewood when Arithon got there after running out of Etarra in CotM.

originally posted by Hunter

Good to know my mind is going… :smiley:

originally posted by R’is’n

Hunter: is that a freudian slip - or another way of saying that your mind is in fact, NOT going.


originally posted by Hunter

Oops… :smiley:

originally posted by Trys

"The mind is the first thing to go… and I forget what the second thing."

originally posted by max

On the other hand folks, Talera would not be the first woman to use a child to get revenge on an ex. She was very angry when her husband threatened her. My impression was that she didn't even love Avar till later. But you will have to forgive me, I really hate what Talera, Avar and Amroth's king [can't think of his name] did to their children. Both Dr. Phil and Dr. Laura would have really harsh words for those people. [grinning at ya]