originally posted by Hunter
In vowing not to kill, Arithon has, intentionally or otherwise, put himself into the exalted company of the Paravians, Ath's Adepts and the Fellowship.
The Paravians failed in their attempts to redeem the Drakespawn, although it could be argued that when the drakespawn were made (or 'spawned'!) the capacity of evolution to higher existence was completely missed by the drakes… silly them… so it's possible the Paravians were trying to drive a square peg into a round whole in trying to redeem something that was ultimately unredeemable… I guess a redeemed drakespawn would have been weened from unprincipled killing and behaved like a 'normal' animal?
Where might I be going with this you ask? Well, we have now Arithon, initiate trained, Masterbard, Master of Shadow, fully imbued with his Royal Geas of Compassion, also bearing the sword Alithiel, crafted to fight Khadrim and latterly found to have a conscious entity whose driving force is to imbue peace. We have Lysaer, curse driven but still human (if you don't read the propaganda of the Light) who pre-curse was capable of love and honour. We have the wraiths themselves, rather like the original methuri. We have the Koriathain, arguably another block sucking leech in the manner that the Koriani Prime can suck the life from an initiate in forced posession.
Ath sent the Paravians to heal the marring of creation caused by the drake's horrid offspring. It would seem we now have Davien sending a fully trained Arithon to heal the marring of Athera's world and threatening of the mysteries caused by the horrid offspring of the creation of the Fellowship's own handy work - the Compact.
I am still hoping Arithon with an activated Alithiel facing a curse deranged Lysaer is in this novel…
originally posted by Angus
Wow. Hunter the Sage.
However, I am not so sure that Arithon will so much seem Davien's tool in this. Though Arithon has been manipulated in the past, he has always had some awareness of the manipulation, and turned it against itself, usually delivering a public relations coup to the priests of the Light at the same time.
Davien is vehemently against the idea of the monarchical system and the damage caused by the Compact. However, for the Paravians to return, the Black Rose Prophecy must be fulfilled, with Arithon being crowned the King of Rathain. Davien wants the Paravians to return, so must support the Black Rose Prophecy, which goes against his principals regarding the governance of humans.
Can anyone see the circular argument inside Davien developing? Davien appears to be on the edge of a deep personal conflict. Will we see that? How can the Black Rose and the "fixing" of the Compact be reconciled?
Personally, I think Janny's going to keep us hanging about a face-off between trained, strong Arithon wielding Alithiel and a curse-deranged Lysaer. Lysaer, in the past, has only had confrontations indirectly with Arithon, when he's damaged, injured, on the run, or otherwise disadvantaged.
The only direct confrontations occurred on Dascen Elur and in the Red Desert, which was before Lysaer was curse-tainted. I doubt a confrontation will happen now with two arcs to go.
She does keep us guessing, and wanting more…
originally posted by Angus
Okay, did I just get suckered for an April Fool? I can't see any obvious joke in Hunter's posting.
Forgive me, but I am feeling rather paranoid today, as I usually do on April 1.
originally posted by Jo
I don't think Davien is against the idea of the monarchs he did say in Kewar Arithon was fit to rule and he is not like his ancestors. Also the bit about the Havens, Arithon tried to avert a war and Davien said what he did was like the havens. Hunter's thread is very thought provoking.
Completley off the wall here who ruled Karthan after Arithon was exciled? Just something I have been wondering.
originally posted by Blue
"Block sucking leech" Hunter? 
As for Karthan, Jo, Arithon spoke with the shade of his father, Avar, who informed him the High Mage of Rauven, Mak s'Ahelas, forced the peace between Karthan and Amroth, and the heirs of s'Ahelas pledged to keep the land, which they healed, green and at peace. So I guess, since Arithon was the last s'Falenn, and is no longer available, his s'Ahelas relations inherited Karthan in his stead. Ironic, I think, if Jorey s'Ahelas - the mean one who teased Arithon as a small child and caused the manifestation of his gift of Shadow - were the Head Mage in Charge there.
In the advent of true Justice, it would also be nice to know if Lysaer's nasty father had a stroke when he found out he could not rain vengeance down on the Karthish people despite the defeat of Avar and Arithon.
originally posted by Hunter
No April Fool's joke… an april fool's joke might have been something like a fake website saying that Janny had invited Ray Feist, CJ Cherryh and Brian Lumley to help write the first book of Arc IV, the arc being called Darkness Triumphant and the first book of the arc being called Triumph of the Mistwraith…
You like that Blue? Methuri are parasites that invade the target body and take over… how can that be different to what Morriel does? I guess there is the slight point of difference that the Koriani Vow gives free right for Morriel to do what she wills with the initiates…
With regards to the Black Rose Prophecy and Arithon's kingship, the exact wording is "The briar will take root on the day, that Arithon s'Ffalenn embraces kingship." Note: not the kingship of Rathain, just kingship. The Fellowship wrote the Compact and divided Paravia into five Kingdoms according to need. Cianor Sunlord was crowned High King of Athera. I am presuming a change to the Compact would be required to appoint Arithon to the position of High King of Athera or Paravia rather than just Rathain?
originally posted by Blue
I sure do like it Hunter, but the funny thing is I always thought it was a "Blood sucking leech" is all.
I do agree that Morriel/Selidie is indeed a Methuri in that respect.
originally posted by Angus
Where does "Blood sucking leech" come from, Blue? I assume that you are referring to Morriel?
To take Jo's query further, were there any other s'Illesids on Dascen Elur? Did Lysaer have any cousins? The old man would surely be dead by now, not having tasted the waters of Davien's fountain. Are the s'Ahelas' ruling Amroth as well?
And hey, will a s'Ahelas be brought back to take up the crown of Shand? They have been virtually ingored.
I really need to re-read Fugitive Prince again. Blue's handle on the details is amazing. How many times, Blue?
originally posted by Angus
Okay, I found the reference: "block sucking leech". Must have been blind, or reading too fast.
Blue's right. Leech's suck blood, not blocks. I don't know of anything that sucks blocks. Cows and other livestock lick blocks (salt blocks, that is).
Yup. It's "blood sucking leech".
Same description could be applied to the ancestors of the people of the Compact on this planet…
originally posted by Hunter
Janny - could the Fellowship change the Compact without the agreement of the Paravians? I suspect not but wanted to know…
originally posted by Blue
Here's another question about the Paravians and Arithon - since the Sunchildren are known to be humanoid in form, and built small, is it possible that Arithon might be a throwback to a Sunchild ancestor/ancestress?
Angus, I can't remember how many times I have read these books. I read the latest, and think, "Wait a minute, wasn't there a foreshadowing… okay, where WAS that foreshadowing?!" and would hop to it. Sometimes, I wish I had the opposite of Dakar's talent, and could look backwards with pinpoint accuracy.
Oh, and Janny did mention that one of her test readers said to make sure we were on tippy toes with FP, because some of the loose ends there were tied up tight in SF. With all of the things she does to put us on tippy toes, I am starting to feel like a ballerina.
originally posted by Jo
Wasn't sure which section to put this or even if it is a spoiler.
SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER
Been re-reading TK and when Arithon is trying convince SBrydon (sorry if spelt wrong) to up sticks he mentions about the vision he has and says that it will become the stronghold for Lysaer. So am I to understand that it may not be destroyed but Lysaer and his Barmy army (no offence meant to English cricket fans) will take up residence or am I completely off the mark again.
originally posted by Derek Coventry
Thanks Blue, My next re-read begins with FP or should I go back to tCotM. I think I will have to work out a schedule as I want to complete my re-reads the day before I get SF.
originally posted by Blue
Derek, go back to whichever volume you want, just make sure you pay attention to the loose threads of FP.
I try to read ALL of the books, in a row, in order of publishing, about once a year. Unlike some authors, Janny weaves SUCH a complex little epic that I find new things all the time.
originally posted by Wendy Collett
It's that Black Rose prophecy. We 'think' we know what it means that Arithon will 'embrace kingship'.
Does it REALLY mean that Arithon will undertake the POSITION of being king, for Rathain or anywhere else?
Or can it mean that he assumes the DUTIES or RESPONSIBILITIES of being a king, without actually accepting the position?
If we look at the second possibilities, just what exactly are the duties of a king of Paravia?
If we look to the Caithdein's oath again, this will provide us many clues.
The second thing is to fully 'marry' the land. This has taken place in full consent now, both at the time the silver circlet was created, and also when Arithon sung the lane back to balance when in the wilderness in PG. But this was only with 1 or 2 elements? The others still have to be added (when, how?)
What else do we know about, that are considered kingly duties/responsibilities? Serve the land? OK. Converse/treat with the Paravians (working on it). Protect from threat (OK, working on the Mistwraith). What else?
Sure as anything, from our reading of fantasy, we ALL know that a prophecy can only be understood in full from hindsight, and let's face it - this is JANNY we are talking about here! lol
originally posted by YT
One thing I've always wondered about - if Arithon has a child, and raises him/her to assume the throne, would that be considered "embracing" kingship? Or could it be something as simple as wholeheartedly accepting the need for a king to exist? (without necessarily becoming one himself)
For that matter, could a female become king? I don't recall any mention of women ruling (well, except maybe Dame Dawr ), but clan society is pretty egalitarian with respect to gender, so…
originally posted by Trys
YT,
One of the Princes sent through the West Gate was Dari s'Ahelas. I believe that she would have been Queen had things turned out otherwise.
Trys
originally posted by Neil
Janny has mentionned that gender is not an issue. I think - from memory - 2/5 of the royal lines started with a woman?
originally posted by Blue
The lines of Rathain, Tysan, and Havish started with men - Torbrand s'Ffalenn for Rathain, Halduin s'Ilessid for Tysan, and Bwin Evoc s'Lornmein for Havish. Which means Shand's and Melhalla's royal lines were started by women.
Neil is right, gender is NOT an issue - Maenalle s'Gannley served very well as Caithdein, the current Caithdein of Melhalla is a woman, and Jeynsa s'Valerient, despite being the youngest child of Jieret, and the only girl, was likewise chosen as capable of being a Caithdein.
As Trys points out, Dari s'Ahelas, as the Shandian heiress, would have been Queen Dari in her own right, had the monarchies not been destroyed in the uprising.
originally posted by Angus
The point of all of the foregoing is that the Black Rose Prophecy is pretty darn broad. Embracing kingship can mean just about anything.
If Arithon is to have a child, he needs a significant other, namely Elaira. And Elaira must, of course, leave the Koriathain. When is our beloved little witch going to wake up and realise that she can leave the Twisted Sisters, if she only asks for help? Someone, of course, must tell her.
This raises another point though. Aren't the bloodlines for the nobility, who in this world are actually noble, guarded in a special way? Is Arithon free to choose Elaira as a spouse, or must he choose someone else to bear his heir? Will that sacrifice be a part of embracing kingship?
Considering the hells that Janny has already dragged our resident poor sod Arithon through, this is just the sort of thing that MIGHT happen.