originally posted by Hunter
SPOILER! SPOILER! SPOILER! SPOILER! SPOILER!
In "Warhost of Vastmark" Morriel has a vision of Arithon chained to a slab in a bleak tower dungeon. Arithon speaks a "phrase whetted to a glib stab of satire".
I had thought this might be in reference to Arithon's predicament at the end of TK in Etarra. The only way this would be possible is for Arithon to great Davien after the expurtation of the Kralovir… but this wasn't mentioned…
Or, this is still yet to occur vision, given it's Morriel's visions, the previous one was Lirenda kissing Arithon, so perhaps these are all further portents to the pending destruction of the Koriani as we know them… ?
originally posted by Neil
SPOILER! SPOILER! SPOILER! SPOILER! SPOILER!
As usual I try to respond and find my mind wandering all over the place…
If Fionn dies on land and Arithon is betrayed, Arithon could well end up Koriani a prisoner.
If Fionn lives to old age, this seems to imply failure of the F7: "darkness" etc. seems to suggest Paravia would be *stuffed*. The Drake binding would seem to suggest the F7 "blow away" humankind before it gets to this point…
So Fionn either saves Arithon, expressly giving up his own life, (he finally accepts Arithon's version of events - which would be *nice*) or a betrayal may cause Fionn's death (whether or not Fionn does the betraying).
I feel it likely that Arithon will have a showdown with the Koriani. I wonder whether he has shown retraint already during the assertively given backlashes to the Koriani. With his current abilities the koriani have to be at a distinct disadvantage no?
I feel the "pending destruction" of the Koriani is not certain. Moriel foresaw succession problems and these have been dealt with. I am surprised that there are absolutely no *consequences* for Moriel. Yet? She is still keen to trap Arithon alive. What can she really gain? Access to spacefaring technology for humans? Wasn't the south gate a freely offered answer? If there is less illness on Paravia due to the frequency, are the koriani only really helping with economic townborn casualties? homeless, etc.? What are they really doing? It seems the higher ranks must all be clan-born descendants…so capable of doing similar acts without crystals (or *with* permission) anyway…
Janny let slip once on the board somwhere(?) that the koriani would play no major part after Alliance of Light and that Alliance of Light is Elaira's story in the way ship's was Dakar's.
originally posted by PurplePenny
S*P*O*I*L*E*R*S
*S*P*O**I*L*E*R*S*
**S*P*O*I*L*E*R*S**
Hunter:
I too thought that the TK scene fitted that vision; except for, as you pointed out, the satirical phrase. How immutable are Morriel's visions? Could it be the same scene but something has made an element of it change?
And on a related note: that scene would make one hell of a cover 
originally posted by Wolfhunter
Hi Hunter,
I have a vague memory with the scene of Arithon on the stone slab, that Lirenda was present. so therefore it was definitely not the TK scene with the Necromancers.
I think Neil is ont he right track, there must be a major showdown with Arithon and the Koriani if they are not to play a major part in Janny's story thereafter. Now this sounds really interesting doesn't it. I wonder if this pans out in SF?
Wolfhunter
originally posted by max
I am wondering if any can say why humans have to be destroyed? why can't they be exiled out the Northgate if they prove unfit to exist on Athera. Janny would this be a spoiler to answer, or can you tell us.?
originally posted by skeoke (Unregistered Guest)
sing sing spoilers sing, la la la
New bend to this topic.
Regarding Arithon on the Necromancers slab.
Has anyone compared Lysaers unbinding at Sulfin Evend's hand, to Arithon's binding?
I have to finish my reread before I can attempt it. But, I was wondering if anyone else had the idea.
originally posted by Ric Tate
I just finished reading the book yesterday. There were several things that puzzled me about the book.
1)The Kralovir: When the humans first came they did so at the sufference of the the Fellowship.
I can understand why the Arth adepts did not deny entry for the cults but I do not understand giventhe fellowships understanding of Arth why the cults were allowed entry of cult members in the first place.
The Korianni I understand because they aren't intrinsically evil.
2) The Korianni:First Moriel: For all the disaster she has caused she has been the major threat to the compact. She didn't do it unintentionally thereforeshe should already have been called to account by the Fellowship for judgment.
I understand that the crystals came from outside of the planet and that is why Sethvir can't read them but since Arth appears not limited to the planet it seems the wardstone and sky crystal need some vacation time in the hostels.
Elaira:Since Elaira was there when the Centaur succored Arithon in Kewar she was also made aware of the same power of freeing herself from Korianni control as Arithon used to free himself from the Kralovir. In fact in many respects she has advanced beyond Moriel and although she doesn't have the rote knowlege that Lirenda has, she could still manage the 9th level in the same way that Arithon managed Kewar.
It seems to me she should be the next Matriarch. She is Arithon's and the mother of his to be heir and that will have to be done but she and ARithon have spent many years apart. She is clearly capable of independence and after Athera is set in order Arithon is masterbard and will have to take an apprentice.
She could certainly travel with him but to do so would demean her own work. She could take charge of the Koriani, set them straight and then if she wanted turn them over to Lirenda who is not a stupid woman and will have learned from her own experience what an abomination coersion is. Its an endless rape.
3)S'Brydion: The only section of the book that while I was reading it just didn't feel true. As an x military person the dialog of the S'brydion men amongst themselves was too contrived and it had almost the oppossite affect of what was intended. A group of men of the type the author presented the S'Brydion to be don't talk like that in private.
All in all though I enjoyed the book (thought it was a trifle thin though compared to the other books but then its not my blood sweat , tears and troubled nights that delivered the book)
originally posted by ishmael smith
In a since i feel your thought…to me the S'Brydion boys are just that overgrown little boys…this may be part of their allure…
Meeting Mearn in earlier books, the Mearn i meet in TK is not reconcilable to the earlier "Mearn" i have learned…i but to indiosnycarcy of the author…
Upon further thought, i have confidence that Janny will work out, or rather write out, the percieved shortcomings as the story continues to unravel…or in this case, ravel.
originally posted by Sean Monahan
My understanding was that the Kralovir did not come to Athera, they discovered necromancy once they got there.
originally posted by LorneReams
Why can't Elaira recend her permissions given to the Korianni? Wouldn't the Fellowship help her gain back her autonomy, if she gives consent?
originally posted by neilw
Lorne,
Elaira has been given the chance in the past to "ask" by the Fellowhip…the F7 sometimes "bend the rules" to try to ilicit questions from others (ex. Asandir + Dakar near the grimward in FP). If I remember correctly, Elaira was too independant to ask for their help and so missed a chance to be free, for the moment.
Sean, that's a new idea to me. I think you're right.
Ric, my understanding is that Ath's adepts are human and would not have existed before the 3rd age. Therefore they did not exist at the beginning of the 3rd age to block any humans arriving. In any case the Paravians accepted the humans.
Supporting "free will" seems more important than destroying necromancy. But maybe we don't know enough of the background here yet?
It'll be interesting to see whether necromancy continues to play a part in the future arcs. Will Arithon feel obliged to root out the other cults or train others to do so? Sethvir also has a scar on his arm so at one point has fallen prey to necromancy?
I spotted another reference to necromancy that I had missed before TK. (In GC Elaira tells Feylind that Moriel hates necromancy and hedge-witches).
originally posted by Hunter
SPOILER! SPOILER! SPOILER! SPOILER! SPOILER!
Sean - what leads you to that conclusion? To me the discussion between Sethvir and Davien when Davien challenges Sethvir's priorities leads me to the exact opposite conclusion.
And this has wider implications for what other aspects (good and bad, mostly bad) of humanity the Fellowship let in when they decided to allow the human refuges to settle on Athera. The technology issues which resulted in the creation of the Mistwraith were a result of this humanity.
"In any case the Paravians accepted the humans". I don't believe the Paravians *accepted* the humans - as I understand the Compact, the Paravians accepted the Fellowships assurances that humanity would behave according to the Compact and be kept under control - the limitations set out in the Compact. The Paravians allowed the Fellowship to stand surety for humanity I think for two reasons - firstly because the Fellowship saved the Paravians from extinction and, secondly, the drakes binding to ensure Paravian survival has not been fulfilled and completed so it would still bind the Fellowship to ensure Paravian survival before humanities - as Asandir foreshadows in the boat ride early in Grand Conspiracy.
originally posted by Trys
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I'm not so sure that the Paravians were involved in the drafting/construction of the Compact. This may be solely of Fellowship design (thus Davien's issues with how it was implemented). I think it safe to assume (dangerous word) that the F7's binding would ensure that the Compact was structured in way that would ensure those areas of the wild necessary for Paravian survival.
Trys
originally posted by Miranda
SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER
(I think…)
Re. Arithon on the slab - seems like an obvious question, apologies to all if I'm being very stupid, but is there any reason that Morriel couldn't have seen Fionn and mistaken him for Arithon? Admittedly it seems unlikely that Fionn would be capable of forming an acerbic remark under even the most favourable conditions, let alone at such a nasty moment, but assuming it was Arithon the Koriani were after, and Fionn they'd got, I should think even Fionn would recognise the irony of the position and manage to comment on it. This seems a little unlikely if only because you would think the Koriani would be able to tell them apart by mage sight if not by normal sight, but perhaps the binding caused Fionn's Name to become warped or shot through with something like Arithon's? Besides, those witches have proved themselves to be pretty incompetent when it comes to dealing with Arithon. When, incidentally, was Fionn 'created', so to speak?
originally posted by Sean Monahan
"Sean - what leads you to that conclusion? To me the discussion between Sethvir and Davien when Davien challenges Sethvir's priorities leads me to the exact opposite conclusion."
I'll have to reread that section. It just seemed that the F7 had the choice to expel humanity, and would have done so if there was a threat like the one posed by necromancy. At the time, the Koriani were an organization to help humanity, so they could have gotten in that way.
originally posted by Hunter
SPOILERS! SPOILERS! SPOILERS! SPOILERS! SPOILERS!
My take on Davien's discussion with Sethvir is thus:
The Compact was necessary, the Mistwraith created and Paravian survival put into jeopardy because when the remnants of humanity arrived on Athera seeking sanctuary, the Fellowship - especially Sethvir and Asandir - even though they'd been redeemed and were still bound to Paravian survival by the drake's binding, still felt responsibility for what had caused the great cataclysm and, in Davien's opinion, allowed their belief and implied responsibility for the human refugees to override their stated and bound responsibility to ensure Paravian survival. So the trials, problems and issues created by what came with that human population - that was allowed in by the Fellowship - was laid squarely at the feet of Asandir and Sethvir by Davien. This included the necromancy of the Kralovir and other cults, included the Koriani and, of course, those who wished to pursue proscribed technology who eventually created the Mistwraith on Marak (which is not to say that the Mistwraith couldn't have been created in any case on another world, however the World's End gates created as part of the Compact allowed the Mistwraith into Athera).
Davien's view was that the drakes' binding override any past responsibility to humanity. Even Asandir says in GC that the Fellowship's service is not to it's own kind - which doesn't seem to be the case when they allowed humanity onto Athera. It's very likely, given he fomented the rebellion, that Davien's opinion was simply that humanity was incapable of redeeming itself and behaving properly and to let anyone in was to imperil the Paravian homeland beyond redemption. It might have taken five millennia, but it's hard to escape the conclusion that Davien has some foundation to his argument.
Trys - I agree that the Paravians didn't participate in the creation of the Compact - but I still think they outlined the terms of the Compact which the Fellowship swore on behalf of the refugees. So the Compact is inheritently a Paravian approved doc.
originally posted by Auna
spoilers spoilers spoilers…
Guilt may have played a part in the decision, but I think compassion also led to allowing humans to stay. The refugees were frightened and traumatized and many would have died if they got sent away (my feeling). I'm a little dismayed that Davien could have turned them away. However, I also understand his point of view - that the system as set up would never allow the Fellowship to be free of their binding and they would forever have the threat of annihilating the humans hanging over their heads.
They did let in all the bad people as well as the good. That was also hinted at.
There was a passage in FP where the Fellowship is dressing down Lysaer and casting him out that mentions something about Paravians dictating the terms of the compact. Of course that could just mean that Paravian survival made the Fellowship choose certain restrictions and that Paravians never read the doc.
originally posted by Sean Monahan
Is then it Davien's attempt to allow the necromancers and townsman to take over the continent, breaking the compact, and forcing the F7 to kill them all? The rebellion could be the first step of this, as was his treatment of Arithon.
originally posted by Hunter
My thoughts are whether the drakes' redemption was the Fellowship's version of Kewar. The drakes granted them redemption but perhaps the Fellowship weren't able to forgive themselves absolution from past sins.
I compare this with the two s'Ffalenns who have gone into Kewar. Kamridian wasn't able to reconcile what he had done and died in Kewar. Arithon was granted release by the Paravians, accepted his past actions, resolved within himself what he had done and was able to forgive and grow - so he survived.
In some ways, the Fellowship are more like Kamridian - yes they got absolution, but have they been able to forgive themselves. More important - I think a probing question Asandir asked Arithon several times is worthy of applying to the Fellowship - i.e. his question to Arithon - "so prince, are you guilty?".
We know the Fellowship in their past lift were (as they say) responsible for the great weapon that laid waste to the worlds of the universe. Its hard to imagine them pulling the trigger/pushing the button to start this. Its more believable that something they did allowed such a weapon to be created (cf. splitting the atom led to the atom bom) hence they still think themselves responsible. But are they guilty?
originally posted by Auna
I believe Davien used the necro situation to further hone Arithon into the tool he plans to use for some future purpose. We'll just have to see how much Davien gets affected by being around Arithon 
I'd love to know exactly how the Fellowship was involved in the destruction of the worlds. It sounds like they disagreed back then from the discussion between Sethvir and Davien and that caused big problems. They could have been involved in creating the weapon, and perhaps manipulating humans since they are so against that now.