originally posted by Chis Fitchett
Ive never posted here before, and i've tried not to for fear of asking to much, however my curiousity is driving me insane. This question is addressed to you Janny, when the Adept is talking to Lysaer during his trial by the Fellowship ( I can't remember if thats in Fugitive Prince or Warhost) and she tells him something along the lines of what he wants will come to pass and the cost will be great bloodshed (can't remember exact quote sorry) is she reffering to him finally killing Arithon, or that Arithon will truely become as evil as Lysaer makes him out to be? Or possibly both… and this is a fantastic series… they are wonderful, and very in depth. Thank you for the endless hours i've spent reading them.
Hi Chris –
Welcome here.
You Asked.
The reference you are looking for is in Fugitive Prince, main chapter III, titled Sentence.
This is going to have to be a "read and find out" because if I did answer it would blow a good bit of the twisting and turning tension out of the storyline.
Arc four and five hold your answers in full.
originally posted by Hunter
Chris,
The scene which you mention has a bigger sting to it - the Ath's Adept challenges Lysaer to ask, at the time he achieves his victory in bloodshed, to ask whether his primary motive was overweening pride or conviction for his fellow man. A question directly at the core of Lysaer… who is he actually doing what he's doing for? The great unwashed of Athera or Lysaer the Magnificent?
Hunter
originally posted by Chris Fitchett
Janny thanks for responding, I guess i'll just have to read the rest then ;-)! Hunter, yeah I saw that, and have to wonder if Lysaer does in fact get to finally kill Arithon will there even be enough left of who he was before the curse to care. Of course I honestly belive his hatred of Arithon has nothing to do with the curse anymore. Only the intense hatred he feels in vicinity… everything else is his own short comings. At least thats how I percieve it.
originally posted by Hunter
The passage mentions Arithon's blood, not Arithon's death. There are several key points. The first is that Ath's Adept says "Persist on your path and you shall have your desires".
Arithon will continue to try and redeem Lysaer. Lysaer has shown in many ways he's a master politician but a very woeful tactician. Growing up on Dascen Elur probably didn't really train him to command armies to traipse all around a huge continent chasing down a fugitive - it's a world of water and mostly shipping.
Arcs IV and V will be interesting to see how Arithon goes about arranging Lysaer's path to redemption. Or to at least abjure his killing path which has left thousands dead in his path. There may be a point where Lysaer has been directly responsible for as many untimely deaths as Desh-thiere itself ripped out on the world of Marak.
Lysaer's hatred of Arithon has everything to do with the Curse. The Curse has made him believe, to his deepest convictions, that what he's doing is right. Evidence and pleading not withstanding. Check the list of those who have tried to sway Lysaer to their detriment - the desecration of the Ath's Adept hostel in Shaddorn, Talith after her captivity with Arithon's men, the mighty Fellowship were left with no option but to throw him out of the Compact - to their sorrow, the ghost of the Paravian on Daon Ramon. Kharadmon's use of grand conjury to recall Sulfin Evend from the Korias grimward which Lysaer claimed as his own.
Clearly the death of thousands has no impact on Lysaer - even Arithon has learnt this. I can't wait to see what happens with Stormed Fortress. Lysaer can't keep hiding his incompetence and hatred dressed up as righteousness for too long.
I'm thinking Arithon will have to confront Lysaer to force the issue. Although Janny said he's in Selkwood right now and I'm assuming Lysaer is somewhere near Alestron trying to dismember the citadel. There are of course two arcs to go…
originally posted by Cheryl Detmer
Good thing to point out Hunter about Arithon's blood. Maybe it means a son he might have in the future or daughter. I sincerely hope Lysaer doesn't kill Arithon. I would not like that and I don't think Janny has that in mind but I don't know for sure. It would just be a disappointing outcome for me. I don't see Arithon as evil at all. I think the curse has totally driven Lysaer to this point and if you remember in Curse of the Mistwraith, they were getting along better and starting to become brothers when the curse struck. I think it's the curse driving Lysaer all the way. I guess it's just how one perceives the series. It's interesting so many people have different views on it. Janny is so clever to write it this way.
originally posted by Auna
The curse has only nudged Lysaer in a direction he wanted to go all along. His overweening pride won't let him admit he made mistakes that cost thousands of lives, so he cannot take redempmtion from Ath's adepts, Paravians, or Fellowship. Instead, he believes he is the savior of the people and without him, everyone would fall. That's a very powerful self deception that feeds into his feelings of self worth. It's going to be really hard to break him out of all that. I wish Arithon and Sulfin the very best of luck!
originally posted by Hunter
So… if Lysaer's actions since his Desh-thiere's curse simply have warped Lysaer's underlying flaws and expanded his hidden hatred of Arithon in particular and magecraft in general, if Lysaer was unable to achieve redemption on his own, would attempts to forceably change Lysaer be almost akin to Unmaking him? An abomination before Ath and a rather large violation of the Law of the Major Balance?
originally posted by Cheryl Detmer
If anyone can do it Arithon can. His gift of compassion should be able to help more than anything else would. I think the curse has gotten so strong and taken over Lysaer, that his actions aren't his own anymore. That's how I see it. He's lost control of his own mind. I think he wanted to be different before and with Arithon's guidance, I think things would have gone differently.I'm just mad at that mistrwraith curse. 
Wasn't that law of balance only for the Fellowship of the Seven? just wondering.
originally posted by Iris Timm
When I think of how the curse had insinuated itself into Arithon's "aware" personality and influenced him (as described in PG) one can only imagine how corrupted Lysaer is by now. It is double sad that (remember) he had many noble and redeeming qualities in the beginning too…all turned and subjugated to the hatred of the curse. Even the smallest weakness would have been over-blown by such a possession, but as we know, Lysaer had some significant issues and personality weaknesses. They have been magnified (to say the least). But, it really touched me when he was facing the Paravian guardian (Centaur) in PG…and he said that he admitted he could be wrong in what he is doing…if so, then he would pay the price. Then he went on to say something to the effect that if he is right, and he abandons his conviction…then that would be worse. very interesting dilemma. Imagine that you have an intensely strong conviction (supported by intuition and knowledge, albeit twisted) that is so vitally important to the future and you are asked to abandon it, to admit it is wrong…could you, would you???
Just one of the themes in this set that is haunting. There but for the grace go I…tragic. Truly fascinating too.
Iris
originally posted by Blue
What I wonder is how much of Lysaer's initial hatred of Arithon was also encouraged by envy.
Way back when in CotM, when they were walking toward the Gate to Athera, in Mearth, Lysaer was reflecting on what they might accomplish in another place. Arithon had not only magical and survival skills, but he was also an accomplished mariner. Lysaer reflected that his own skills had all been polished to inherit a crown that was now beyond him. As a result of his "lack" he might be a tutor at arms, or even worse, a mercenary, though fighting for a cause outside his beliefs was abhorrent.
In short, Arithon had more "marketable" skills that would enable him to live a much better life should they find someplace to go that was civilized.
When the shadows of Mearth attacked, Lysaer was upset that Arithon had had the training necessary to use his shadows to their fullest potential, while he had to practice, secretly, in order to use a small portion of his light power potential.
Further into the story, Lysaer kept asking for a weapon, and I believe it was after the confrontation with the lone Khadrim, he looked rather enviously at Alithiel. Arithon was on the verge of handing it over when Asandir told him he could surrender it only to his own blood heir - being as it was a s'Ffalenn family heirloom, though Arithon did not remember this, thanks to Asandir's memory block.
Then, at the campfire with Felirin, Arithon demonstrated incredible musical ability, and while Lysaer probably appreciated such music, it was yet something else he could not do that Arithon could.
The culture shock of Lysaer finding out that he was the liege lord of "thieves and brigands" when they met up with the clans, while Arithon was completely at his ease with them went further to create problems with their relationship.
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So the beginning of the relationship was not a good one - Arithon begotten on Lysaer's runaway mother with Avar s'Ffalenn, the worst enemy of Lysaer's family. Further, Lysaer envied Arithon his training, skills, and abilities, and Arithon did nothing to endear himself to big brother during his stay in Amroth.
During their pre-curse time together in Athera, they seemed to be getting to know one another, and actually starting to gain each other's trust. The key phrase here is STARTING. There was still a lot of damage thanks to the family history between them.
The Mistwraith, during its attack at Ithamon, was able to get into both their minds, and even place one of the wraiths into Lysaer, in an act of passive possession, which would become active at just the right time. It found out all it needed to know about both men, and tailored its revenge to suit.
In Etarra, they found out there was still a long way to go in terms of getting along, since Lysaer used his skills and experience as a diplomat/politician/handsome studmuffin to get in good with the Etarran powers that be, while Arithon kept slumming in the poor quarter, looking at the price those knacker's conscripts (children) were paying for Etarra's prosperity.
The Mistwraith had VERY fertile ground indeed, and I'm sure that is what the Adept sister was using as her basis of her statements to Lysaer.
Lysaer's actions seem to be a much darker variant of Asandir's mindblock on Arithon. Instead of a mindblock being imposed out of compassion for someone suffering greatly from things he had been forced to do for his very survival, the mindblock is being imposed by Lysaer himself because he cannot BEAR to believe that what he is doing is wrong, and so far from what he knows to be right. He is trying to spare himself from the very anguish Arithon suffered when he begged Lysaer, on their first meeting, for a knife, to end the s'Ilessid/s'Ffalenn war once and for all by killing himself.
His problem is that he cannot, for the sake of appearance/pride, and perhaps because he just does not know any better, admit that his actions are/were wrong.
In many respects, Arithon is far more mature than Lysaer, but that may be due more to education/experience, than any royal geas or Curse. Mak s'Ahelas, fierce taskmaster though he was, did a far better job raising Arithon than Daddy Dearest s'Ilessid did with Lysaer. I believe at some point Lysaer was even described as "sheltered."
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As to the blood mentioned in that passage by the Adept sister, I guess we have to wait for the last volume in the series.
originally posted by Trys
Consider also that Lysaer posesses s'Ahelas foresight and while it may be untrained it is possible that the Curse could be using this to influence Lysaer as well.
Trys
originally posted by Cheryl Detmer
I agree with you Iris. That is how I feel on it. I have a lot of compassion I guess and sympathize with both their plights but I cheer for Arithon through it all. I think the reason the curse hasn't taken over Arithon is because he is so much stronger than Lysaer. The curse is causing Lysaer's bitter feelings toward Arithon to be even worse than before I think. That's stating the obvious though. I can't wait to see how it plays out but I hope for a good ending of somekind rather than a tragic one. Only Janny knows the outcome. lol
originally posted by Iris Timm
Thanks Cheryl - me too. I am looking forward to it with mixed feelings…want to see what happens but don't want it to end!
BTW - are you still planning to go to DragonCon in Atlanta ?? I've never ever gone to anything like that but am considering it just for the opportunity to meet Janny and see her art upfront.
Iris
originally posted by Cheryl Detmer
Yes, I'm still going. I hope to have a meal with her this time if it's not too hectic with her schedule. I hope I can talk more. I was just too starstruck before but I did manage to talk some. Hopefully, I can be myself around her this time. It should be fun and I can't wait to see Meisha Merlin's booths and Don Maitz booth. I plan on spending some money there. LOL I just hope the lines aren't so long that we can't meet whom we want to meet. It will be fun to meet you Iris. I think Wayne said he was going to this con. Maybe we should put this in the miscellaneous thread. Let's plan to meet Iris. Janny is so funny and sweet. I enjoyed her company very much.
originally posted by Iris Timm
Great! It will be fun. Lets do start a new thread on it and see if we can get organized. (now to figure out how to start a new thread…)
originally posted by Cheryl Detmer
GO to the miscellaneous area. I'll start one again for Dragon Con 2005 so we can chat about it. Going there now. lol
originally posted by R’is’n
Blue: I liked your breakdown of the fertile 'ground' that the Mistwraithe would have used to put Arithon and Lysaer in opposition. Food for thought…
I really liked your description of Lysaer as a 'stud muffin', amongst other things. *grin*
Interesting also, in that the confident central heros in fantasy books are usually stud muffins. In WOLAS this is tipped up on its head - he has all the appearance of success - but the perspective we get to see - it's not so simple. Their budding relationship, now disrupted by the mistwraithe, keeps me hoping for Lysaer's redemption.
I like the fact that Janny hasn't just made the 'goodie' stereotype a plain 'baddie' either.
originally posted by Cheryl Detmer
I feel the same as you and keep hoping for Lysaer's redemption. That's what I believe Janny is getting at but I could be wrong. grin
originally posted by Auna
It would definitely be interesting to see what causes Lysaer to redeem himself given the quagmire he is in right now.