originally posted by Arend
I might be misremembering…
When Dakar "sees" the daughter, he doesn't actually remember that he made the prediction. I seem to remember a comment that when Dakar does not remember the prophecy will come true. Correct?
originally posted by Aria
No Michael you're not the only one. I like the bugger too. 
originally posted by Arend
Actually, I don't like Davien much, possibly even less than before; the same goes for the rest of the F7 with the exception of Ciladis, whom we have not seen yet. I can't argue from Davien's motives, in the sense that the whole interaction with the rest of the Fellowship is still way too unclear. There's so much history. It's more his condescending attitude towards Arithon that puts my teeth on edge, and I am highly suspicious of geniuses who know what's best for the world. The rest of the F7 for tying Arithon in even more knots with his blood oath.
Janny, direct question to you that I've carried around for a while: how do simple human characteristics or emotions like arrogance, compassion, irritation, love, etc mesh with the deeper (?) complexity of the beings that make up the F7? Should I think of them as ripples on a pond (humans) vs. ripples on an ocean (sorceror)? We argue a lot about the motives of the F7 in our threads and I always feel a little uncomfortable doing that to beings that are—in some sense—aliens.
originally posted by Neil
The F7 are bound so some of their actions for the "good of the world", based on strands scrying might not be ideal but it may just be that they don't have a choice?
Davien is avoiding direct involvement in Etarra but is happy to aid Arithon. Luhaine and Sethvir don't appear "impressed"…"you are not his grace's friend" blah blah blah…
But Davien is already a step ahead I think. He is also capable of hiding his presence from an Ath's adept. An innovative development…
Davien could have stepped in at Etara (discussion with Sethvir) but Davien judged Etarra an important lesson for Arithon. Perhaps Arithon needs this for prepartion for further tasks where Davien can't intervene (drake binding) or it is an extra tool against the mistwraith curse/Koriani/free wraiths/mistwraith?
I particularly like Arithon's exchanges with Dakar in Etarra. Certainly the Question: "Why didn't you tell me?" Answer: "you didn't enquire" seems to be a parody of the F7 policy of "no marketing" 
Roll on Stormed Fortress…If only the Alestron bunch would just melt away…Lysaer would have nothing to do…
originally posted by R’is’n
spoiler - spoiler - spoiler
Etarra - Janny: I was wondering, there are two questions I have:
Arithon rejected reading the Grimoires on necromancy. Then Traithe had to intervene at the last minute and give him instruction -
how much information did he receive from traithe?
Arithon was captured, weakened and subjected to the rituals - In my mind - he made a mistake perhaps in not reading the grimoires, but in not doing so, it opened the way for him to reaffirm the paravian 'grace' in him. Would he have found it in a less gruesome, suffering manner?
Was there an easier path to knowledge/wisdom at first?
I'm speculating that the fear he seemed to need to get over: that the Mistwraithe will use new knowledge. Perhaps in this case it's healthy fear…
I'm afraid I have to disagree with the image of Arithon (and other characters) butt-kicking Janny. *grin* When he looks back on his story, I think he'd thank her profoundly - without the challenges he faced, and the hints he received, he wouldn't be mastering his gifts.
(Message edited by admin on January 12, 2005)
originally posted by Blue
Spoiler Maybe
Actually, Roisin, I have the image of Don Maitz coming into Janny's studio one morning and saying, "I think you should see this."
Janny stands up, looking puzzled, and follows him into their main living room and looks out the window.
An organized picket line, marching and carrying signs with slogans, made up of the WoLaS characters. Lysaer, of course, is shouting into a bullhorn, carrying Giorgio Armani bags, and complaining about the "tacky" wardrobe he is forced to endure.
Arithon is standing to the side, looking at his brother and shaking his head. He spots Janny, and holds up his sign for her to read: "Wurts unfair to musicians!"
A bit of a squabble ensues, as a bunch of the characters break off at seeing Janny, and render their own complaints, somehow trying to win sympathy that Janny has done THEM more wrong than Arithon. "I want a new Waystone, and I am suing for assault, physical injury, and emotional distress, thanks to that fire spell!" yells Selidie.
"What about me?" says Dakar, "I'm not getting enough time in either a tavern or in a brothel for compensation, especially considering what I have to put up with!"
Janny turns to Don and says, "Well, that's something I'll bet Ray [Feist] won't be able to top. I'm being picketed by figments of my own imagination."
originally posted by Wendy Collett
Hysterical, Blue!! Just Hysterical!!
Lucky me! I've just finished TK, got it for Christmas but was still reading through the series to move straight into it.
I perhaps read it a little fast, I did get a little confused on some of the dialogue on who was saying what, where, but this also happened with Hell's Chasm also. On a second re-read of HC I was able to sort more of it out in better order. It won't be unusual to read the book again in more detail very soon, just give me a little while to think some things through…
As I sat there reading through intently and intensivly, occassional words sprang out in the silent room… to the effect of
'You Bitch', to Morriel - several times!
'Oh-Oh-Oh-Oh-OH!!!@' when I spotted some valid little sentence, when a 'penny struck'.
Followed by more hysterics at the antics on the south coast, especially with the whores and the priests. What an excellent thing to constantly re-enact each year!
SPOILER, SPOILER, SPOILER
This is just a few little interesting points I did see so far:
Davien, when talking with Sethvir refers to the LIVING (dragon) mate of one of those in the grimwards. A LIVING DRAGON.
(Note: In PG - When the crux time of the solstic came upon them, Sethvir commented to the adept that if the worst happened, Asandir would return to a mess, and would have to try and recall a dragon.)
So - where are the dragons hiding? With the Paravians?
An earlier book suggested they could be sleeping under the volcanos that Morriel tried to cap with the Weystone - WoVM?
Several times, in several books, TIME itself becomes discussed, and all indications are that a 'pocket of time' can be cut out of real time. Lysaers meeting with the F7 happens 'outside of time'. Kharadmon mentions that it is 'too late' to cut Arithon & Elaira in their time together by separating out the 'time'.
By reading through the glossary at the back, it does actually provide some insights into where some people and things have happened etc, that are NOT mentioned directly in the book.
Such as - Eneth Tuer (the seeress from Erdane) - she WAS a Koriani until the F7 helped release her from her vows. An interesting precendent… She's dead now, but don't bet it won't come to Elaira's attention, maybe through SE, who did seem to know she was there in the first place.
That's another point - SE knows much more than he says so far. So how did he know about Eneth in Erdane when he had never been there? Maybe an overheard old Koriani 'dark tale'?
And then there is the discussion between Davien and Arithon, and I can't believe the Ciladis fans haven't mentioned it yet. Davien says something along the lines that the F7 believe that Ciladis has been 'captured' - I think was the exact word used.
Just why would you (as a Paravian), want to capture a F7 sorcerer and hold him against 'FREE WILL', which would be against the LoMB?
originally posted by Hannah
Wendy,
I always assumed (dangerous) that since the Paravians must surely have a valid reason for their actions, they must have convinced Ciladis, and he chose of his own volition to remain with them. Maybe the sleep spells he's kept under were meant as a kindness, so he wouldn't be tortured by his decision to dwell with them for the time being, rather than assist his colleagues who need him.
originally posted by Hunter
If the dragon was recalled from his/her sleep, there would be no need for the grimward then right??
My feeling is that Ciladis did find the Paravians and that he learnt something that he wasn't allowed to return to tell until something happens which he would mess up if he told ahead of time… So I think Ciladis is held "voluntarily" with a set criteria for him to awaken - the return of sunlight was not sufficient.
I've never seen the answer to *how* Ciladis left to search, the TK glossary says he left the continent in search of the Paravians - given he is corporate, I can only presume he got in a boat and went sailing - which is kind of what Arithon did. Unless of course he went through one of the Worlds End gates - after Janny has said that the Paravians did visit the worlds through the Gates…
Roisin – YOU ASKED.
POSSIBLE SPOILERS FOR TK AHEAD - though the info is mostly informational.
First: there is always an "easier road" to knowledge - possibilities, probabilities, are infinite, it's imagination that fails to see far enough, or leave room for a possibility mind cannot see.
Second: Traithe gave the knowledge - all of it - but because it was NOT in the orignal book form, it would have another "slant" on it - due to the fact the delivery was one step removed from the original author/creator. Arithon did not voluntarily accept it at Kewar; he was given a second chance to see what he needed, and took it, since to walk in eyes open was the ONLY way he could handle what was asked.
He took that acceptance, still holding the fear -
He created his "solution" – handling the fear, willing to bear it forward…but not yet resolving it – and his dissolution of the PROBLEM at his (and the Fellowship's feet) was a far step beyond what the Sethvir, Kharadmon and Luhaine and Traithe thought or hoped he could achieve at the time.
At TK's closing - SPOILER - the driving seed that's at the core of that fear still lies with the Mistwraith.
This is where the story left you - - -
originally posted by max
Janny, I can hear you when you say that we can read thru in two days what it took you two years to write. An analogy comes to mind… Our mother preparing a beautiful holiday dinner that took a couple of days to prepare, with lit candles and crystal ware all laid out with two different forks etc. etc. When all came into dinner, they ravaged the table like a pack of wolves, and afterward the area looked like a stripped carcass. It used to make our mother crazy and one year she threw the turkey on the floor, she got so mad. [yes, she should have been on medication] I myself have been tempted to just tell them on holiday dinner days to just go slop themselves at the trough!! [grinning at ya]
originally posted by Trys
max,
Maybe she should have put the frozen turkey in the middle of the table and see how long it took 'em to gnaw through it. <g>
Trys
originally posted by Neil
It's a pleasure (and sometimes hair-raising) to Arithon being innovative with his personal increasingly impressive skill set.
I wonder why he hasn't considered koriani oaths and that the F7 could free Elaira.
Maybe he has just been too busy preoccupied with survival and F7 demands?!?
originally posted by Hannah
Maybe it seems too easy or too good to be true…
originally posted by R’is’n
Janny - I have another question - although it might be tricky to answer at this stage…?
What are the differences between the bindings of an oath sworn to the Waystone, a high-king's oath sworn to the land and the binding of the great drakes on the F7?
Roisin - my gosh - that's a biggie. I don't want to go into the separate ramifications at length, yet…so in a teacup:
Waystone - crystal: stored pattern of resonance.
High King's oath sworn to the land - this is an attunement. (tuned to a partnered channel, for harmony)
Fellowship's binding - Archtypal.
originally posted by max
Does a high resonance world affect the people living on it? Or just the ones sensitive to it. Or is the high resonance world affected by the generalized condition of the population. And for comparison, would our planet be high resonance? Can there be areas that are high resonance? The sensitive areas of the paravian continent, are they more resonant, or is it different from resonance altogether. I am probably due to reread the series but if any can answer it would help clear the read for me. I know I am missing something but I can't put my finger on it so I am asking. thanks all[smiling at ya]
originally posted by R’is’n
Janny,
Thanks! Both answer give LOTS of food for thought - yoga for my braincells… *grin*
originally posted by Memory
SPOILER
SPOILER
SPOILER
SPOILER
SPOILER
I finished TK last night… woah…
There were many, many scenes that pulled at the heart-strings, but I think the most intense one, for me, was the whole episode in Halwythwood with Arithon, Elaira, Dakar and Kharadmon. I couldn't believe what was happening after Dakar et al broke through Arithon's defences, and had to re-read it several times to confirm what was going on.
It just seemed to me to be humiliation on a level Arithon's not yet received - and he's been through a lot. It really shocked me, but I think that's partly due to the fact that the bit before - with the cutting between Elaira & Arithon, and Dakar trying to find them - was so beautifully poignant. Then, we were pulled back down to brute reality with what happened next.
I felt so horribly bad for Arithon - more so, possibly, than at any other time before. This moment, when he was finally able to come together with Elaira - someone he loves so much - so privately and intimately - was completely destroyed. He was wide open and completely defenceless.
I dearly hope his and Dakar's relationship can recover from this… it seemed at this point that even Arithon's vaunted empathy failed him. The more I read of him, the more I love Dakar. Ever since he allied himself to Arithon, we've seen him develop so much, and I admire his stubborn courage.
The whole scene was stunningly executed, Janny, and one of the best written I've seen yet, but I found it so hard to keep reading it!
originally posted by Konran
I finished last night around midnight. That might seem like an insanely short time to read a book (about six hours) but actually I was slowed down quite a bit, as I can usually finish off about a hundred pages an hour. There will definitely be rereads in my future, though…
… all I can say is, I agree. WOW. That was intense. In a different way from PG though. In the previous book events just kept building and building until I almost couldn't stand it; in this one, it's more like a roller-coaster, with separate dips and multiple spots in which I had several mini-heart attacks. 
So, enough gushing… here's some thoughts I had while reading.
- Sulfin Evend. Wow. I have a ton more respect for him now, more than I already did. I liked him from the beginning, but I appreciate him much more now. He's Lysaer's Jieret, isn't he? It will be interesting to see what happens when his interests as caithdein and his interests as Lord Commander of the Light collide (because they almost have to). I almost wanted to smack him though, because his utter loyalty to Lysaer is so sweet, and I want to grab his shirt collar and yell at him that he's following the wrong guy. Lol.
- *incoherent gibbering* HOMG THERE ARE LIVE DRAKES ON ATHERA. Please, please, pleeeeeaaase, I want to see one… *beg* … though hopefully not in the context of much destruction (unless one lands in the Sunwheel Square at Avenor… *evil grin*)
- Iyats! That was absolutely BRILLIANT! Leave it to Arithon to take a curse and turn it to a blessing! I have the feeling if Lysaer turns up another war host, it would be very easy to make it lose heart extremely quickly… *wishful plotting* But did he have to drive himself to the edge of exhaustion for it? ;.; You are so mean to him… I just want to hug him… though I have the feeling he wouldn't appreciate it much ^~ Ah well, I've always heard that the secret of good writing is to strand your characters up a tree with a bear trying to get at them… and then throw rocks at them…
- Hah, sunwheel priest humiliation. I was giggling uncontrollably, especially the bit with the whores. Arithon plays dirty, doesn't he? I love it.
- Speaking of cruelty to green-eyed Masterbards… *howl* HOW COULD YOU? Arithon… and Elaira… and then… DAKAR! And Kharadmon… grr… I wasn't happy with him at that moment… If I ever get my hands on Selidie… *sniffle* I love the interweaving style of narrative you use in that passage (similar to the style going through Kewar)… it sucks me in every time (deeper than I've already been pulled under, of course. ^~) I have the feeling that if Arithon and Elaira do ever manage the chance to be together again, somehow it just won't be the same…
- Necromancers… call me a little dense, but I didn't quite understand exactly what the threat from them was. I understand that they were trying to suck the soul out of Lysaer, basically, and turn him into a puppet to control the Alliance, and to use the Alliance to get rid of the "magic-users" that oppose them… but… Without Lysaer's charisma and statescraft, the Alliance would totally fall apart. It would be Lysaer in there, but NOT Lysaer, and people wouldn't follow him like they used to… right? I have the feeling that I'm missing something, something deeper, but I can't see what it is. *frustrated* I'll have to pay very close attention to those sections on the reread.
- Alestron… *writhe* SO close to getting Arithon a kingship… Am I the only one who found the brothers s'Brydion a little… irritating this book? I don't know if I'm just annoyed with them for refusing to listen to Arithon or what, but they got on my nerves a little. Especially how they treated poor Fionn.
- Speaking of Fionn… he's starting to come around, I think! *cheer* We'll make him an ally for Arithon yet.
- Davien… I don't know what to think. He's so slippery and mysterious, it's hard to get a hold on what he's actually thinking. I'll withhold judgment for now.
- Verrain… I enjoyed the more in-depth look at a character we don't usually get to see much of. ^^ I've decided that I like him very much and I hope he gets involved more.
- Glendien… *hiss*
- Waystone… ooooohh, Selidie's pissed over that one. Hee hee hee. Way to go, Arithon. I wonder what effect that has over all the bindings/information/etc. previously stored inside it, as the crystal's nature has been altered… Too bad the dumb thing didn't just shatter outright. (Death by flying razor-sharp shards of crystal… too good for our body-snatching Prime. *glare*) And Lirenda… I know she kind of deserved what she got, but I can't help feeling sorry for her…
That's about all I can think of… I'll be looking over the other topics, of course, and rereading multiple times until I can get ahold of SF… Thanks, Janny, for the awesome ride! I can't wait for the next bit.