originally posted by Beth
Ok. Very confused but I still don't think it will ruin any of Janny's book when I can eventually pick a book up. God, Im more excited about getting TK in Feb then my Birthday and V-day which are both in Feb as well.
Nice to know I will be able to reread TK lots of times before SF comes out. I HATE waiting for books to come. It is particularly bad since I don't have anything to read right now. I have reread lots of books recently and I can't reread anything right now. And nothing comes out till the end of January. (Anne Bishops next Dark Jewels book is out then).
Beth
Hannah - thank you! Very helpful. I appreciate your time! I took alot of "chances" with this book, not least, the symbolic aspects of it.
SPOILER POSSIBLE - beware SPOILER!..scroll past as warned…
(The mentioned scene between Sulfin Evend and Lysaer,) seen on "one level" can be read in one narrow way – yet – it is not a physical scene in its implication, one bit. The camouflage (clothing) is off the ideas and the characters…and the conversation and revelation, and the honesty of their interaction, therefore, stripped utterly naked.
It was a complete leveling of the field, precisely as stated. Lysaer issued challenge: he IS 'justice' in accord with his gift in that moment. Sulfin Evend accepted the terms without reservation.
I do nothing without purpose.
If this had been a "physical" scene, you'd have been given that at ONLY that level. This book, as a whole, has more areas that risk being interpreted at the least discerning/most common denominator, even though I made every effort to widen the imposed boundaries of ofttimes rigid ideas. (bare skin = sexual context)
So I appreciate seeing the various ways in which different readers make the scenes
'theirs' - it helps me to know in more clarity what may need to be 'restated' later, in broader context - so that the rest of the series can more clearly unfold with the intricacy of its full design.
There is no judgement call, here - you will see what you want or expect, to experience…until another twist or turn of the story rips off the mask you were wearing…
On another count –
I wonder, a bit - if anyone's "opinion" of Asandir shifted, through this one…it was a serindipity that discussion of this character arose, Exactly as I was writing the unfolding scenes at Althain Tower.
originally posted by Blue
Spoiler alert, or maybe not.
Okay, I don't have the book in hand (WAAAHH! and other assorted whiny noises.) As I see it though, if I am curious enough to read posts in this topic, it is MY decision to do so; Hannah has it right. Put the SPOILER warnings on top, anyone foolish enough to peek in deserves what they get.
I will not let the surprise get away from me. I can read someone else's response and interpretation of what is before them, but I have seen in the past that my own interpretation and response is not necessarily the same thing.
It is almost like the old story about the five blind men encountering the elephant, each touching a different part, and insisting that HE knows the truth of the animal, even though he cannot see it. (Of course, in that story, I always felt sorry for the guy holding the tail!) 
Above, someone asked about Arithon and necromancy and his heart's desire. I think I can venture an opinion [take it with as big a grain of salt as you need, I don't mind!] on the subject, based on years of D&D gaming.
Necromancy is "death magic." The practitioner, called a necromancer, is studying death, and the ability to control spirits of those who have gone on, or even such things as poltergeists. The magics they use are highly dangerous, and not exactly the work of good people, though there are exceptions.
Arithon has been trained to heed the source of power that adheres to the LoMB. Thus, he only understands death and spirits as those things apply under LoMB. HOWEVER, the entities that make up the Mistwraith are somehow circumventing the LoMB, and skewing the natural rhythms of death and spirituality, hence the paradoxes of the curse these lost souls cast that shackles himself and Lysaer.
Were I a gambling woman, I would say that Arithon is seeking to learn a necromancer's disciplines, and see if there is a way he can figure out HOW these lost souls went awry, and help them. He probably has a fair idea of what has happened, but like the scholar Mak and the other s'Ahelas mages raised him to be, wants to understand it fully. The entities that comprised the Mistwraith "were once human" which means that they evolved/devolved somehow from human. Janny - as Sethvir back in Etarra, freeing Lysaer of possession - is VERY deliberate in her choice of words!
Anyway, that is MY spin on it. Though knowing Janny, we WON'T know until the last sentence of the very last volume of this series, and even then, she'll probbably turn all of our expectations squarely on their ears!
By the way, Janny, that IS a compliment, however back handed it seems. Please don't ever lose the ability to surprise the daylights out of us!
P.S. I know MM is up to their eyebrows in getting TK ready for the US market. Do they have any plans to release anything on audio CD? My bro is one person interested. I wouldn't mind it myself, but I would insist on unabridged.
originally posted by George
Janny,
I have just finished the book, after reading it for almost two weeks. I've been crawling through it carefully as I catch the bus to and from work each day.
It was well worth the effort, and I think the book was well written. I further understand your previous quandry of splitting ST in to two volumes, as the depth and breadth of writing in this current installment was great. I can only look forward with much excitement to ST.
I must re-read your point regarding the examination of Asandir, as I do not believe it made as much an impact on me as the unveiling of the character of Davien did.
In truth, I was shocked by Davien's stance on the issue of humanity as I was lulled in to a belief (in reading the prior novels), that Davien would have wanted to preserve humanity, but on HIS terms. This is obviously not the case given Davien's conversation with Sethvir at Althain. Touche Janny! You came out of left field with that one!
As far as the issue of writing in metaphors is concerned, all i can say is that the book is full of them and I agree with your comments concerning the discerning reader. HOWEVER, as previously posted (by me), i did notice that this installment did have a more "fleshy" feel in the earlier chapters, particularly with regard to Glendien, Feylind and her mate, the prancing harlots and several other references to that form of fleshy sexuality. In that light, the scene with Lysaer and Sulfin may have seemed a little gratuitous to the non-discerning.
Without diminishing the foregoing, the scene of Elaira and Arithon on the "grass knoll" was absolutley beautiful and I suspect was heavily drawn upon from forms of Tantric and Taosit sex?
In any event Janny, what can we say except that you have honoured your faithful readers with a QUALITY piece of literature. The time and patience that you have expended on the novel shows…GREATLY. Kudos to you and keep them comming.
Cheers.
George.
PS. for any reader wishing to read a series of novels containing metaphors and hidden commentary on society, I suggest you read the Earthsea Trilogy by Ursual Le Guin. You will be pleasantly suprised if your scratch past the veneer of fantasy.
originally posted by Auna
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I never felt that the nakedness of Sulfin and Lysaer was anything sexual, but rather a stripping away of trappings that would hide total honesty.
This book was more clear to me (so I think anyway!) than any other book so far. Either I'm used to the writing style, or things were explained better. I still have some points in other books I'm totally confused about even after multiple rereadings.
Asandir… I didn't shift my view of him and everything he did made complete sense as far as saving the Ath's adept and risking himself to save Athera. I found it very disturbing and interesting to see Davien's viewpoint of Asandir as the perfect model of heroism and almost a yes-man to Sethvir's wish. He seemed to have contempt for Asandir's 'blind' devotion. I think I'll need to see more of Davien's views before I begin to shift my own feelings towards the fellowship we've already met and learned to respect/love.
If anything, I'd say I'm wary of Davien and his seeming disrespect of the hard work that the other fellowship members do to save Athera and the humans. I would have agreed with Sethvir about letting humans stay which probably colors my opinion at this stage. So right now, I don't like Davien all that much and see him as more a perhaps necessary cattle prod than anything else.
originally posted by Hannah
Janny,
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Oh don't worry. That wasn't my primary reaction to the Lysaer/SE bath confrontation. I got over the little giggle allowance real quick. I appreciate the symbolism you describe that you put into that scene. It went completely over my head, though I'm sure you can understand that the first read is a quick and thrilled reading of "What happens next?!" whereas my next rereads will be more of a "What is really happening here?"
It has been previously noted in the course of re-reads that the Atherans don't seem to share the same sense of scandal about nudity as earthlings. Or maybe it's just me–maybe I'm too modest. 
I enjoyed the scenes with SE and Asandir at Althain, I enjoyed the fact that it was specifically Asandir that met with the Lord Commander, given the fact that Asandir is probably the one F7 that Sulfin Evend has most reason to fear/mistrust. The interaction was quite enlightening.
I do confess that I don't precisely understand the nature of the sacrifice that the Adept was prepared to make for Asandir when he was battling the wraiths. That scene demands a closer inspection I guess.
Oh, on a related note! Was the triplet of Isfarenn's successor an important plot point to remember, or just a wee snippet to titillate us readers and make us smile? Well, I guess you couldn't say unless it was the latter.
Hannah
originally posted by Hannah
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I forgot to say, Anna reminded me, that the fear I was trying to allay was this: I was NOT trying to piece together some twisted 'Shipper relationship between Lysaer and Sulfin Evend, a la Frodo and Sam (per some LotR "fans"). Lord knows if someone wanted to go through the book and start pairing up people, there would be no end to the mayhem caused. Arithon/Dakar, Lirenda/Elaira, Sethvir/Asandir… ohmigosh. I have to stop. I'm sorry if this offends anyone here but I am NOT fond of slashy fanfic in any fandom where the author of such fic is INTERPRETING that the author clearly was insinuating a homosexual relationship, but didn't want to come out and say it because of [insert random reason]. I don't understand how slash became such a fad. ::shrug:: But that's neither here nor there. I know Janny would not tolerate such slashing of her work. Got off on a wee tangent there.
Um. Yeah, so I wasn't insinuating anything sexual in the nakedmanbathwrestling. It was just an… interesting set-up for an intense scene.
Like Anna, I must have settled down to Janny's writing style, because I can actually focus on paragraphs of exposition instead of just wanting to skip ahead to the snappy dialogue. Thus, I really understood this book that much better.
Hannah
originally posted by Trys
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quote:BINGO!!! That was exactly my take on the scene. The stripping away of the clothing evened the playing field between the two. Unfortunately Sulfin Evend pushed just a little too far.I never felt that the nakedness of Sulfin and Lysaer was anything sexual, but rather a stripping away of trappings that would hide total honesty.
Does anyone else thing that the Curse is ramping things up now that one half of the target has 'mastery' over it?
quote:When has Janny tossed anything into these books… especially in the triplets… that aren't "important plot points".Was the triplet of Isfarenn's successor an important plot point to remember, or just a wee snippet to titillate us readers and make us smile?
Trys
originally posted by Hellcat
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quote:I do confess that I don't precisely understand the nature of the sacrifice that the Adept was prepared to make for Asandir when he was battling the wraiths. That scene demands a closer inspection I guess ---- Hannah
My take on this: Its not that the Adept was prepared to make a sacrifice that was the problem, but that by her helping Assandir she would have come into contact with the evil that was the Mistwraithe and that COULD NEVER be allowed. The Adept channels the Prime Vibration that is Ath if that channel became sullied nothing could never restore the prime vibration to purity. It would be like losing the concept of good or love or purity. A world where you would no longer be able to touch that would become truly rotten.
I also think that this is a subtle hint as to why the Paravians left. Maybe they could not risk possession by the wraiths, and the thus letting Ath’s promise of redemption would be sullied. They could not encounter the hatred incarnate in the Mistwraith without absorbing the destructive emotion and becoming subject to it. Only those that already have the potential for hate and destruction (aka humanity) can withstand that force, because we have encountered and dealt with that potential within ourselves. (see also Altheil and how the sword is supposed to be used. Very different from a normal sword)
Hellcat
originally posted by Trys
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I think the nature of the sacrifice that the Adept nearly made is simpler than that. Had she involved herself she would no longer by an Adept… no longer have that unsullied connection to Ath… and so Athera would be diminished by her loss.
Trys
originally posted by Hellcat
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If so then why did not Assandir accept her sacrifice? Surely under the LoMB she is allowed to offer herself? I need to start my re-reading but IIRC Asandir's working would have re-captured the wraiths and removed the possiblity of the wraiths ever reaching Athera. Given how dangerous to the WHOLE of Athera the wraiths are I would have said the freely given scarifice of ONE would have been worth the price. That's why I think there is something more.
Hellcat
originally posted by Auna
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Asandir is bound by dragon oath to preserve Athera. Aths adepts are a part of Aths mysteries, as such he is dragon bound to preserve her intact and not risk her being diminished or possibly dying. Also, given the state of Aths adepts, they can't afford any losses. He makes an apologetic reference to his dragon binding to the adept when she seems hurt that he rejected her sacrifice. Hence, this is how I interpreted it.
originally posted by Trys
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Auna,
That is similar to my take on the situation. Remember what happened in the one grove when Kevor became an Adept?
Hellcat,
I agree that there is something more to it but I don't think it's tied up with the wraiths. I think it's tied up with what Ath's Adepts really are… and I don't think we've seen all there is to them yet.
Trys
originally posted by Hannah
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Very interesting interpretations all, I'll enjoy going back to reread with these thoughts in mind!
Hannah
George - just a whisper of a side note: I do not follow or study either the Tantra or the Tao.
originally posted by starstorm
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Oh… my! Wow! (…and other exclamations of drained satisfaction!)
I just finished the last hundred or so pages last night, so I really haven’t absorbed it all yet. I honestly think it’s going to take a few days to let everything settle, although reading through this whole spoiler topic has helped settle my thoughts (after avoiding it like the plague until now!).
Janny, thank you AGAIN for taking such care in your crafting of this story. I’ve heard people complain about your visual style as too wordy, but it is just such a joy to read, and part of what makes you one of my favorite authors. And as much as I hate waiting for the next book, I do appreciate the time that goes into the creation of the end product. It helps me remain patient
quote:…I can't wait to find out whether Sulfin Evend and Arithon arrive at Sanpashir together - and if they do, what the outcome is. ’ Leonie
That was one of the first things that crossed my mind when I reached the end of the book. SE has become one of my favorite characters with this book, and I can’t help but think that a meeting between those two would only make him more determined to help Lysaer, even if he doesn’t become a direct supporter of Arithon (he seems just stubborn enough ’ as with his opinion of Asandir ’ to reject total acceptance). I think he’s wise enough to know’after several literally painful lessons - how carefully he’ll have to tread, but like someone else mentioned in this thread, I can unfortunately see him being condemned as a traitor and practitioner of dark magic.
The "taming" of the iyats was just brilliant.
quote:The Great Waaaaaayyyyyy (what have you done to my) stone… shrieked Selidie. ’ Hunter
<lol> ‘Alt, damn you, Alt!’ Classic… utterly classic! And despite the as-yet-unseen repercussions of the changed Waystone, SO much less than she deserved, IMHO!
quote:'the Koriani are REALLY a bunch of COWS/TROLLS! ’ George
You can say THAT again, and double it for Morriel/Selidie!
THE SCENE with Arithon and Elaira was just so incredibly painful to read, knowing that whether or not Dakar reached them in time, their brief peace and moment of joy was going to be shattered. That was just so heartbreaking.
quote:I made the mistake of choosing to begin that chapter while at work, so I was running out to my car on break and in between just staring in a daze of disbelief and dismay. (I work on the phone all day, so my mind kept thinking ‘How can you be asking me such mundane questions about vehicles and money?! Don’t you realize that Elaira could become pregnant? PREGNANT!! DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT WOULD MEAN!’ ’ Hannah
Aaah… Hannah! I can’t imagine trying to concentrate on work throughout that chapter!
quote:Does anyone else thing that the Curse is ramping things up now that one half of the target has 'mastery' over it? ’ Trys
Here I was, wondering why Lysaer was losing it just at the mere MENTION of Arithon’s name, but I do think maybe you’ve hit it squarely on the head!
Such as they are, those are my initial thoughts. Back to lurking!
~ Anna
originally posted by Hunter
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On my third read…
In the first robust discussion between Lysaer and Sulfin Evend, Sulfin Evend mentions that there is scholarly opinion that if the compact is broken and the mysteries sundered, then Ath's Adepts would simply fade away, like the Paravians. Whilst perhaps inelegantly put, if Ath's mysteries were to cease, then the Ath's Adepts, at least as they are on Athera, would also cease to exist…
originally posted by skeoke
Spoilers … etc.
All these happy thoughts about SE and A in Sanpashir…
What is Arithon's reaction going to be to the man that cut out Jieret's tongue???
If they even meet.
They need to be allies, but, dang, there's a bit of a stumbling block in the way.
originally posted by Kathy
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You don't think that Arithon's compassion would allow him to forgive? Would he be understanding of where SE was then and able to recognise the changes that SE has undergone? (Yep there is a "bit" of a stumbling block!!) Would Arithon want them to be allies, although this had changed in TK he has been reluctant to bind allies to him in the past, would he not recognise the "spot" he would place SE in?
It's just a thought! (or 2)
originally posted by Deborah Eddy
I bought TK last night and immersed myself in it - am a fast reader so have had a complete read, plus a re-read of several scenes.
I really hope that at some point Arithon and Elaira can show those conniving bitches whatfor… Selidie/Morriel deserves a major come-uppance.
I felt so sorry for both Arithon and Elaira when they were so rudely disturbed but I can accept the necessity of why it had to happen. It'll be interesting to see how things go between them after this as Arithon's not likely to want to complete their union with that mark on her body that will mess them both up so badly and permanently. The sooner she can get rid of that sigil the better - maybe if Elaira and Arithon can do something about cleansing the Waystone then the spell can be removed from her?