originally posted by Hunter
As Smith said to Schaeffer in the Schloss Adler… "best I could come up at the time"… either that or Lysaer being lauded around on a palanquin carried by sunchildren with Dakar running in front throwing rose petals on the ground…
I was trying to come with something so implausible it would never be taken as a spoiler…
Oops… was about to say a spoiler about unicorns and maidens… better not.
originally posted by DarthJazy
I enjoyed this new debate greatly. I would only like to add to something HUnter said about his moral and social justice.
Now social justice is decided by the land or ruling Society. The people of that place decide or in this case the paravians what is justice.
Lysaers Morals Justice is exactly the same. his morals are a depiction of the society he was raised in which is not Athera so would be greatly different.
Each Society depicts what is right and what is wrong. what is moral and immoral also comes from this. He knows no different cause whats he see as right and wrong is not the same as what it will be on athera.
originally posted by Meredith Lee Gray
Hunter,
No, I was thinking the same thing whne I wrote that about "someone worse." It was sheer bad luck that someone in Lysaer's possible position of authority that was cursed. If it had been a goatherder or someone, who knows if Desh-thiere could have caused the widespread mayhem that it has through a charismatic prince.
I only meant that there are a lot of people out there with a lot less moral qualms… really bad people, who would be all too happy to let their darker side take control, and not ever think twice about it.
Blue, I've been re-reading a lot of Lysaer's scenes in the recent books, and I think it's apparent that Janny is emphasizing the sincerity of Lysaer's caring for the servants and followers around him (when it doesn't interfere with Curse-driven intentions). Here's just a random quote about Lysaer "His brief smile to the lease insignificant page could have fuelled a torch by sheer caring." I don't think that's a fa’ade.
Mer
originally posted by Lyssabits
Hunter – I'd argue that your intent *is* relevant. You get lighter sentences for accidental death, emotional distress, and non-premeditated murder. You are not legally liable if you're insane. They usually force medical treatment on you, but they don't send you to jail. I think Lysaer would have a hard time proving he's insane, but technically he is as it is the Curse causing him to go after Arithon using any means necessary.
My point was only that for all that people can understand and sympathize with mitigating circumstances such as being cursed (and clearly Meredith does), at some level it really doesn't matter that Lysaer has good reasons for doing what he does, he still has done all these terrible things and rightly or wrongly, people will take him to task for it. I am very sad and sympathetic to Lysaer's plight, but that doesn't mean I don't also sort of despise him. The Curse can only work with what it's given and Lysaer has plenty to work with. I don't have to be perfect and faultless to recognize and dislike bad traits in others. And I can sympathize with Lysaer and still not want to have anything to do with him. Some people are just toxic, and it's not always their fault, but that's no excuse to let them get away with some behaviors.
originally posted by Matthew
Just to clarify, Shand's forest gets Warded but Rathain's forest didnt?
originally posted by Matthew
As to interfering with freewill… didnt one of the fellowship invoke trees or something to defang men set to destroy a forest? couldnt the same thing have been used on Lysaer without compromising his free will?
originally posted by Trys
I believe that the Fellowship 'invoked' the trees with their willing participation.
originally posted by Matthew
aye with the trees willing participation, but not the soldiers it effected. so if they were willing to let the soldiers be effected by hte trees why not Lysaer?
originally posted by max
If the curse could drive Arithon to insanity, then you had better believe that Lysaer's end decisions are a result of insanity from the curse. I believe he honestly thought he was going to win the wars that he has started. and look at the beginning of each of those wars. At Tal Quorin inexperience ruled right along with the insanity. [both sides on that one] At Vastmark, even Arithon didn't know how that was going to turn, hence the faulty scrying and the sacrifice of the 500. Arithon still has the training to help him defeat the curse and sometimes he didn't bother to fight it. He killed Caolle after all. Lysaer isn't evil, just a bigger combination of what affects Arithon as well. Character flaws, curses, insanity, how can one poor boy fight all that.[happy day]
originally posted by Maurice Peter Vialle
Jean Giraudoux (1882 - 1944)
The secret of success is sincerity. Once you can fake that you've got it made.
originally posted by Julie
Lysaer was raised to be a king- one who would give himself wholly to his people.Unfortunately he has was raised by a bitter father and the lasting memory of his mother is one of abandonment. He was starting to challange some of his long held prejudices when he was cursed. He is sincere when dealing with his subjects, he truly loved Talith and cherishes the loyalty and friendship of Sulfin Evand. He is aware of how little control he has of a fanatical following. [SF Spoiler deleted.] Remember Arithon began his as a 3 year old.
(Message edited by admin on December 12, 2007)
originally posted by Jeffrey L Watson
I deleted a reference to SF in the last post. Sorry.
originally posted by Clansman
Thanks for the delete, Gryphon. I stopped reading it just in time, as I am only in the middle of SF.
originally posted by DarthJazy
oneday i may get to start to read it. as i can no longer sit up to play wow thanx to neck back shoulder problem, the time at work spent in chair is aobut my limit. I am trying to save money for january to by it or febuary. after i rehab from xmas 
originally posted by Julie
No problem with deleting the spoiler- I should have flagged it. Darthjazy- do you have a local public library that can order Stormed Fortress? Or perhaps another blogger on this site who would lend you the book. I cannot imagine the exchange rate will improve over the next few months and its a shame you haven't been able to read it. good luck with the rehab- do the exercises and ice, ice, ice
originally posted by DarthJazy
Julie;
it would be great if their were any other tucsonions around but alas i don't think i have seen one. the b ack exercises are a normal for me and my stretches, the last person to touch me with ice on my back at all got a fist in the chest, Coldness on my back causes me severe pain i think because how my nerves are all messed up and missfire often or could be the spasims
originally posted by DarthJazy
Ok just reread this topic and dam you people are all good arguers. the only things i will add to the debate are this.
Religion is the explanation of things humans either are not ready too or can never understand.
Science is the persuit of all truth and maybe wrong at times as humans it creator is flawed
I am so glad for times liek these that as an Agnostic in belief i reserve the right to talk about view or see god as I see fit or choose at the time. If a god is real I will not choose a religion for I would hate to be wrong choose to be morman get to heaven and have to say dam it it was budda. ofcourse all this coming from a man who created his own religion in college around a rock star Ozzy Osbourne. I did create it and whats left of the website is still around just ask ill give you the website.
OK that being said now that we know more about Lysaers curse who now has sympothy for him? I would ask the question given the depth that he was controlled till now is he or the mistwraith responcible for the enactment of slavery and the other deeds done leading to lysaer being kicked from the compact?
originally posted by Christopher Beckett
MILD SF spoiler enclosed…
I have a lot of sympathy for Lysaer, but that doesn't change the fact that he is the one most likely to throw all of Athera into serious jeopardy.
Remember Lysaer was raised at court to rule. he believes UTTERLY, the the way that only someone raised to believe can - that he is born for kingship. At the same time, a powerful hatred/distrust of magic/ the Karthan pirates / the Rauven mages and the s'Ffalen was engendered into him. Understandably he has applied this distaste to the clans and F7.
Try arguing against a cradle taught racist and see how far you get.
Add to this the fact that he was not mage taught and does not understand or sympathize with the deeper issues concerning Athera. He has little concern for the issues of Paravian survival, the sanctity of the free wilds, the stability of the Grinwards, and no real understanding of the need to preserve the clan bloodlines, make a better dfense against the Wraiths etc.
THEN, he has had a powerful curse, which he does not understand, cannot separate from his core character and lacks the faculties to extirpate laid upon him.
AND he finds a powerful wellspring of anti-clan sentiment just waiting for a figurehead.
With all that laid on you, worked in such a way that it makes you feel completely justified, what would YOU do?
Remember Lysaer is a compassionate individual - his love for Talith was absolute, merely sullied by his geas-influenced hatred for Arithon and the machinations of the Avenor council. He has shown regret and self coubt, but a combination of his prejudices, bad (vested interest) advisors, the curse itself, the Kralovir, and Arithon's missteps (the Havens for one) have lent the geas massive leverage over Lysaer's innate sense of justice.
Lysaer does NOT understand that he can assert the right of his Name and fight off the curse - partially because he does not even truly realise he is cursed, and partially because the nuance of the Law of Major Balance is completely alien to him.
His choice to build the religion of the Light was a terrible, false and destructive one, but was rooted in the (good) apsects of his characetr that people should not suffer, should be protected and have justice.
As was said at the start of COTMW, the Wars of Light and Shadow are an impartial tale, and though it seems obvious to us (perhaps because of the pre-existing sympathies that exist amongst fantasy fans for the underdog, harp carrying tragic hero) that Arithon is the hero and Lysaer the twisted nemesis, that is NOT the case. BOTH are needful to defeat the wraiths and reunite the Fellowship.
I feel that Lysaer will in the end have a redemption, probably through self-sacrifice, although Janny continues to surprise and delight, and I could be very wrong or have misinterpreted so very much.
originally posted by Kirsten Laurelle Wallace
[BEWARE OF STORMED FORTRESS SPOILERS]
I would have to say that I actually really like Lysaer's character. Yes, I will admit that Arithon is my all time favorite and I definately want him to prevail, but I do like Lysaer a lot too. I don't want his character to die or be a "badguy." I actually feel really bad for him because of several of the reasons you presented Chris; (do you mind being called Chris?) the main reason being the loss of Talith and his son.
My impression of the series was the same as yours; both Lysaer and Arithon are needed to defeat the Mistwraith and therefore Lysaer has to escape the curse or he'll be unable to work with Arithon. I wouldn't presume to guess how this could happen as I never manage to guess properly when it concerns Janny's writing. (I absolutely love that I can't guess)
I do think it would be interesting to point out the Prologue in Curse of the Mistwraith. I won't rewrite the whole thing on here but I think it's an interesting thing to go back to. I do like the last line though; "This is the chronicle the sages recovered. Let each who reads determine the good and evil for himself."
When I first picked up the series I thought the prologue was pretty much saying that Arithon dies and that Lysaer was the one that went down as history's savior. A comment someone wrote on another of the discussion pages has me thinking of this in a new way. The comment had something to do with their belief that that Arithon will never become King. It's interesting to remember as well that Arithon doesn't know he has a daughter and she could very well take his throne. This could lead to an ending in which Arithon disappears into obscurity (hopefully with Elaira?) and explain why history still views him as the "spinner of darkness."
Anyway, back to Lysaer… The prolgue, especially the ending line, makes me thinks that Janny doesn't want us to view Lysaer as the badguy but to understand his character and see both sides of the conflict equally. If read unbiasedly, Lysaer does everything because he thinks it's correct and just. He is the hero of his people. Arithon is doing the same thing but he's the more unwilling hero of the clansmen.
I still have my fingers crossed that the ending of this series isn't going to end in huge amounts of bloodshed and Arithon's death. Can't help it, love the characters too much.
Sends Janny an apologetic smile…
(Message edited by admin on November 24, 2008)
originally posted by Kirsten Laurelle Wallace
I want to apologize for any spoilers from Stormed Fortress in my previous comment. I hadn't read the rest of the discussion before I posted. I was just responding to Chris's comment.
So sorry, if there is a spoiler in there somewhere.
