originally posted by KimberlyIsrael
I wasn't going to tell Arithon anything from his future, just whatever's known up to whatever point in the story I manage to walk in on him. So where I am now (they're just about to finish battling the Mistwraith), I'd tell him about the Black Rose Prophecy, but I wouldn't tell him that the mistwraith is going to curse him and Lysaer to hate each other.
I think this whole looking at the future thing is overall a bad idea, as others have mentioned. Not so much in Dakar's case - he can't really help it that prophecy comes and hits him on the head. But looking at the future closes off all the possibilities that depend on you not looking. Altough I guess not-looking closes off the possibilities that depend on you looking, so maybe it's an even trade.
As far as Davien manipulating Arithon vs the Fellowship doing so… I guess Davien probably is too, but he seems more straightforward about it somehow, if that makes even the tiniest bit of sense. At least, he seems to value Arithon's freedom more than the others do, even if it's still for his own reasons. But I'm going to stop with that train of thought before I rush headlong into TK spoilers 
originally posted by Auna
I think if you tell Arithon about the Black Rose prophecy, you doom it to fail since he would be guilted into doing it instead of embracing it freely on his own. I also think the process that transforms him into accepting that will also be required to get Davien to follow the balance part that was mentioned.
Asandir is sneaky in his manipulations, but at least we see he regrets what he feels forced to do. We haven't gotten that type of insight into Davien's mind yet, though I'm hopeful the next book illuminates us a bit in this regard.
originally posted by Miranda Bertram
I think one major difference between Davien's and Asandir's means of manipulating Arithon is that Davien manages to be so very pleasant - and so much more subtle - about it. Asandir just seems to use the rather unattractive and brutal method of endless and obvious guilt-trips. Arithon does what he's intended to do - and knows that he's intended to do it - but only because his conscience won't let him do otherwise. Davien, on the other hand, manages to be so affable and careful in his string-pulling that it's almost imperceptible - at least to Arithon. Or perhaps it's just so suavely done that Arithon doesn't mind it. Also, I expect if Arithon looked Asandir in the eyes and said 'You're manipulating me, aren't you?' Asandir would look very grim and tight-lipped and launch into a stiff, painful, stinging explanation. Davien would laugh and smile and look foxy and say 'Yes! And?'.
originally posted by Blue
The description you are giving of Davien's style puts one in mind of a master politician. It would be interesting to see Davien pitch himself against Lysaer in a council chamber debate.
Lysaer would probably lose, big time, to Davien.
Davien walked from the gallery, smiling, waving cheerily at the appreciative crowd. Lysaer's inner circle was left with him back in the councilroom, stunned, wondering how they were going to reattach the Divine Prince's lower jaw.
originally posted by max
I have only done one read so far, but I just have to disagree with above. Davien has something very weird going on in his head. Now It's very possible I just don't 'getit' yet, but he strikes me as being rather juvenile when he sneaks up on Arithon to scare him. What is that about? It's just so weird. And altho I don't agree with Lysaer's pol
itics, he is a master politician, where as I don't see Daviens explaining his position at all. He just goes off and does what he wants to do. And so far it looks as tho he doesn't have a problem running over anyone that gets in the way of what he had in mind. I find the man irritating in the extreme! Of course as Janny opens the story more, Davien may show himself to be very compassionate. I thought he was a little more than cold toward Sethvir when Seth asked for help. but who knows? [grinning at ya]
originally posted by Miranda Bertram
Max, I think what you're saying is that he's somewhat amoral, and a little lacking in a sense of responsibility. Well, yes, these things may be very true. But I think, and I may be utterly wrong - beguiled by his charm, that he's transcended certain aspects of conscience (rightly or wrongly). Arithon, emerging from Kewar, is a far stronger, happier, calmer individual because he's at peace with himself and his behaviour, and I think that's because he's learned to see the bigger picture and his relevance to it. Perhaps Davien's in a similar position. Davien's apparent indifference to conventional morality is less appealing than Arithon's more moderate ability to accept his 'crimes' and live with them only because we're so accustomed to a human-centric morality, or perhaps Paravian-centric morality in WoLaS. If you take the 'bigger picture' far enough, nothing much matters anymore - maybe that's what Big D's done. And, yes, maybe it's made him a little nutty… 
Blue - tee hee, yes, if Davien could be bothered with politics he'd be amazing. Poor Lysaer wouldn't know what had hit him.
originally posted by James A. Messick
I've been thinking about something, Supposedly the towers of Ithamon have tones? that reinforce their guarding virtues and that the 5th tower the one that fell is like a raw wound nothing where a tone should be to complete the vast harmony. For some odd reason I'd like to say that Rathain with it's towers could possibly be the heart of Athera especially since a good many High Kings have ruled there… I believe it mentioned the fact that a Paravian High King was murdered in that tower of justice and that was why the tower fell… because justice was basicly twisted out of itself. Some days i'm sitting on pins and needle wondering if that tower will be rebuilt and given absolution and if the tower itself will become twice as rabid in defending it's high king next time something bad rolls around… wonder what the full 5 chords of ithamon did? i think we caught a glimpse in peril's gate from just the 4chord tones 
originally posted by Adam Drake
Well I finally knuckled under and joined the group so I could post. I don't have COTM to hand but re read it when I went home for Xmas…
Everyone thinks(lead by Fellowship interpretation):
Davien won't repent and the Fellowship won't be restored unless the Black Rose Flowers. This will Happen when Arithon accepts kingship.
What (according to my interpretation) is ACTUALLY said:
1) Davien will not repent (end of statment)
2) the fellowship won't be restored to 7 until this sign (Black rose)
Comment (Sethvir? don't have book to hand): 'Thats impossible'
Response (New prophecy (Ath answers?)):
'This will happen when Arithon freely accepts kingship'
People assume (IMHO wrongly):
Fellowship restored to ORIGINAL 7.
Resolution of story will be fulfillment of Black Rose Prophecy that the fellowship are striving for.
I think that scene is the one which everyone will kick themselves over in the end because the writing is exquisite - you naturally make the one assumption which everything that comes afterwards flows from. Sadly its wrong.
originally posted by Neil
Janny, you wrote: "I see no need to repeat here what has already been illuminated in published text for the benefit of you readers."
Will the appendix ever be available in the UK books?
Neil - can't answer that at the moment.
I am shortly going to turn in Stormed Fortress - and if they don't squawk over the length, I will ask…let's see what develops. It would be nice.
This wasn't a deliberate slight - the appendix got added to the US edition because there were going to be six blank pages…so at the last second, we filled them with the material, which was supplied because of so may reader's questions on those topics.
originally posted by Neil
Thank you.
originally posted by Hunter
The US hard cover edition of Stormed Fortress is very nice… worth buying for the artwork as well as the appendix!
??
To my knowledge, I am just about to turn in the manuscript…
Though I got someone's e mail from NZ today, claiming a library could get an edition from "outside" - odd since the story hasn't left home yet. Even the editor's waiting.
originally posted by Hunter
Oops… I meant Traitor's Knot…! Sorry…
Some online book stores do get hits when searching for Stormed Fortress because when SF got split into TK and SF, the SF name seemed to be kept somewhere…
originally posted by Winter
I was thinking that post must have been an error. But then I realised that the US hardcover of STormed Fortess will indeed be worth buying for the artwork and appendix. So still true, if not entirely what was intended…
originally posted by Laneth Shadow-Walker
Now that's funny.
I'd love to read the NZ version…that would be an … interesting … read.
Janny, ye rock. Totally. Turning in your chopped&changed manuscript to the editor. Oh what a glorious day!
From here, we are steadily approaching the down-hill run to the finish line, aren't we?
This year will go fast, if for no other reason than I'll make it…just to get my hands on the book!!!
originally posted by Hunter
The Kiwi version would have "eh?" at the end of every sentence of dialogue… :
:
originally posted by Konran
RE Black Rose Prophecy… I had the same wonderment a while ago. I was rereading and then suddenly sat up and noticed.
"Davien the Betrayer shall hear no reason, nor bow to the Law of the Major Balance; neither shall the Fellowship be restored to Seven until the black rose grows wild in the vales of Daon Ramon. The briar will take root on the day that Arithon s'Ffalenn embraces kingship."
Is that first bit one sentence or two? That semi-colon is open to interpretation… You can read it as either "These two things will happen when the black rose blooms" OR "This will not happen, but this will happen when the black rose blooms." That "neither" is rather vague. That's something I've been curious about for a while now as well.
originally posted by Mark Timmony
Hey Hunter, Galaxy Bookshop still has copies of the US TK
originally posted by Winter
The Fellowship, if it's restored, would be restored to the original seven. See this thread (Janny's post in particular) on why.
https://paravia.com/discus/messages/777/1712.html
I think the catch is the idea that Davien has to believe as the others do about humanity's place on earth and the political structure devised to govern it. Surely Davien could become a participating member of the fellowship and still disagree with the others on certain points. Also, I think the really interesting thing to consider is Ciladis returning. Because if Ciladis returns then that has the strong suggestion that the Paravians will be found or are returning to the continent themselves.